What colour is this kit?

[kwilds]

Can someone tell me what colour this kit is? It is 6 days old from a litter of 10. All 10 are identical to this! The parents are a purebred Black (chocolate carrier) Silver Fox buck and a chinchilla Flemish giant cross doe (I believe her colour is called light grey in the flemish breed?). Not sure what color genetics or even what other breeds are in the flemish doe's pedigree. From the parents colours I would have expected a mix of agouti and self coloured kits. The day they were born I thought they were all self black - unusual from a cross between an agouti and a self but certainly not impossible if the doe carries self behind her agouti. None of these kits had any sign of agouti bellies when they were born and still dont. But they are all developing this brown colour as their fur grows in so I am pretty sure they are not self black. I have bred many litters of mini rex, angoras and a few meat mutts but none of my lines have ever produced anything that looks like this. The only thing I can think of is gold tipped steel? Which means that my doe is actually steel and not chinchilla? or my Silver fox buck is a steel? In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter as they are all going in my freezer but I am fascinated with colour genetics and this one has me stumped!

 

[ladysown]

looks like a dark chestnut at this point, but you are right with the odd colours.... not a chance to a be sable at all???

 

[Dood]

Gold tipped steel

Steel cannot hide in a light grey but "steel grey" Flemish have the gene (and called "silver tipped steel" in other breeds - see pictures of a light grey/chinchilla and a steel grey/silver tipped steel)

It can hide in self black and your black silver fox likely carries two steel genes or he could actually be an agouti super steel - one of our members had a bunch of "black" silver fox which turned out to be agouti super steels

 

[kwilds]

looks like a dark chestnut at this point, but you are right with the odd colours.... not a chance to a be sable at all???

I did think about sable - but that would mean both the doe and buck would have to carry Cchl, very possible for the doe considering she could be crossed with any number of things but as far as I know that is pretty unlikely in the silver fox, certainly more unlikely than steel.

Dood - I took another, much closer, look at my doe and she is chin for sure. I was pretty sure already but when weird things pop up in the nest box I always wonder! Which means the steel must come from my SF. On one hand that is kind of cool since I really like the steels and I do tan the hides of my meat rabbits - cool colours are great, on the other hand it's really not good since I had planned on maintaining a line of purebred silver fox as well as the crosses. I wonder if the presence of the steel gene would really make any difference for the purebred silver fox since the colour would not be expressed in them anyway? A gold tipped steel silver fox pelt would be pretty fancy!

 

[Zass]

I see gold tipped steel.
Lots of purebred silver fox carry steel. Self genetics hide it, and so far as I can tell, it's a non concern to the breed.

I had papered SF from different states that were all carrying two copies of the gene. Two copies means both parents (usually from different rabbitys) were carrying the gene. Which indicated to me that it's quite widespread among some very well known show rabbitrys.

Another member had visual steels pop out when self SF were bred together (totally unrelated to mine as far as I know, and from different state then me.) there have been plenty of other members who saw steel when cross breeding, like you are.

I used to see it pop up on facebook a lot too, when I was a member of color genetics groups over there.

Good luck finding a SF line WITHOUT steel!!!

Most breeders won't have a clue if their lines have steel genes hidden by self. The only way to even know for sure is to crossbreed to a color that can't have or hide it, like a chinchilla who doesn't carry self.

 

[kwilds]

Zass - that seems to be what I am finding as I do more research! I did dig around in the nest box again this morning and found 3 that actually are self black so he must only have one copy but it does seem the gene is pretty common in Silver Fox.

 

[Zass]

Zass - that seems to be what I am finding as I do more research! I did dig around in the nest box again this morning and found 3 that actually are self black so he must only have one copy but it does seem the gene is pretty common in Silver Fox.

Actual self kits could just mean your doe carries a recessive copy of the self gene and can pass it along. I think MOST silverfox are genetically self too, and just carrying invisible steel genes.

Steel only affects how agouti or chinchilla pattern manifests. It extends the base color and can be highly variable.
For example, both of these rabbits are gold tipped steels. (and coincidentally, also 1/2 silverfox.) The darker one waited until 8 weeks to show any ticking at all, whereas his brother could almost pass for a poorly marked chestnut. Some dark steels never show any ticking (appearing as solid selfs) even if they only have one copy of the gene. That's the reason why most breeders try to keep steel as far from self lines as possible.

And I found a pic of steel kits too.
The top is a chocolate gold tipped steel, and the bottom a black like yours.

Agouti kits will have white inside the ears and white bellies, even very dark agoutis will have it. The steel gene is the only gene I know of that takes that white away from a visual agouti.

 

[kwilds]

Thanks Zass! The last picture of the steel kit looks like it just crawled out of my next box . . . identical!

 

[alforddm]

This was the first doe I owned. She was a Silver Tipped Steel. Proven by breeding to be Esej Aa Cchdc Bb DD