What color is this?
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RabbitsOfTheCreek
Netherland Dwarf Breeder & Well-known Member
Looks like Orange but maybe a bit lighter so maybe Fawn?
Looks orange to me. Any dilute orange (called fawn in many breeds, cream in Angoras) I've seen were much paler.
Trick question!
Yes, that's a nice smut-free orange <A_B_C_D_ee>, which in Flemish Giants is called fawn (SOP says fawn is to be a "rich golden straw color"). In coat color genetics and most breeds, cream is dilute orange <A_B_C_ddee> and looks much less orange.
I suspect the difference between breeds that call varieties "red," "orange" or "fawn" are differentiating between the intensity of rufus desired in the color. For instance, lops recognize all four varieties, with cream being a dilute and increasing intensity of rufus going from fawn to orange to red. They're usually wideband colors.
From from what I've seen, the fawn phenotype can be either low-rufus orange <A_B_C_D_ee>, or dilute high-rufus red <A_B_C_ddee + lots of rufus modifiers>. In Flemish, fawn seems to be a low-rufus orange, since breeding fawn with sandy <A<B<C<D<E_> is encouraged but breeding fawn with blue is discouraged by the breed club. In Fox's The Biology of the Laboratory Rabbit (Second Edition), the Taxonomy and Genetics chapter lists Flemish Giant fawn genotype as non-extension <ee> but not dilute or wideband (and somewhat surprisingly indicates that sandy is wideband, which is not typical for chestnut).
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Fascinating. That must mean that mom and dad both carry Ee, correct? So he would be A_B_C_D_Ee.Trick question!
Yes, that's a nice smut-free orange <A_B_C_D_ee>, which in Flemish Giants is called fawn (SOP says fawn is to be a "rich golden straw color"). In coat color genetics and most breeds, cream is dilute orange <A_B_C_ddee> and looks much less orange.
I suspect the difference between breeds that call varieties "red," "orange" or "fawn" are differentiating between the intensity of rufus desired in the color. For instance, lops recognize all four varieties, with cream being a dilute and increasing intensity of rufus going from fawn to orange to red. They're usually wideband colors.
From from what I've seen, the fawn phenotype can be either low-rufus orange <A_B_C_D_ee>, or dilute high-rufus red <A_B_C_ddee + lots of rufus modifiers>. In Flemish, fawn seems to be a low-rufus orange, since breeding fawn with sandy <A<B<C<D<E_> is encouraged but breeding fawn with blue is discouraged by the breed club. In Fox's The Biology of the Laboratory Rabbit (Second Edition), the Taxonomy and Genetics chapter lists Flemish Giant fawn genotype as non-extension <ee> but not dilute or wideband (and somewhat surprisingly indicates that sandy is wideband, which is not typical for chestnut).
Mom would be harder to figure out as a Californian, but now I know she is Dd and Ee.
Yes, both parents must carry <e>. Given the interbreeding of sandy and fawn in Flemish, it's not surprising that he carries <e>. Correction: he's not <ee> as that would be orange aka fawn. I mistyped that; it should have been <ww>.
Actually you can figure out almost all of your cal's genotype. Californians are selfs so <aa>, black based so <B_>, cal so either <ch c> or <ch ch>, you know she's <Dd> and now you know she's <Ee> (if she was <ee> she'd be torted). So: <aaB_ch_DdEe>
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She has very light feet and ears so she may even be dd.
Off at a tangent: what would you expect a torted blue Californian to look like?
We have a meat litter of Californian x Rex at the moment. The Cali mother is known to be Dd; the Rex father is ermine so cc and based on his parentage, has to be carrying at least one d and one e. Some of this little meat litter is extremely pale, though a few of these have points darkening as they grow.
And a further curveball: what would happen if a Californian got hold of one A gene?? Mottled ears???
I would expect smoky points with more variations in hue than a normal blue. I've never had one but I imagine you'd have to be paying attention, especially in a blue, given the variation inherent in the temperature-sensitive <ch> gene. This martenized himalayan <ata B_ch_D_E_> slipped past quite a few observers for that reason:
If the rex sire is ermine, which is a non-extension chinchilla, aka torted chin, he's <A_> and <cchd_> and <ee>... <cc> is REW. If he was a self <aa> instead of a chinchilla he'd be a sallander, which is a non-extension self chin, aka torted self chin.
Some of my blue himis have started out extremely pale, and take much longer for points to show up than the blacks. Since both of your parent rabbits carry dilute that might be what's going on. They might also be ermines, since your buck's <cchd> trumps your doe's <ch>, if your doe happens to carry <e> as well. What color are their eyes? Cals = pink, ermines = blue-gray or brown.
It gets agouti markings, similar to the marten makings above. The points would be agouti-colored as well, i.e. different colors on each hairshaft rather than all the same color as on the self rabbit. I wouldn't describe them as "mottled" per se; that sounds more like what you get when you throw harlequin into the mix.
This is the nose of an English Angora Himalayan (aka Californian or pointed white, depending on breed). Because Californian genetics shuts off the pheomelanin yellow tones (same as chinchilla, sable & albino REW), the agouti coat looks like chinchilla. When it was young, I assumed it was a blue himi, which was a surprise since I don't have dilute genetics in my herd. Later, I could see the banding, and eventually figured out we were looking at an agouti pattern. The ears have the same coloration (but on the long angora fiber, it's harder to distinguish the pattern than on the short hairs of the nose.)
Thank you both!!!!! Very helpful and interesting.
in NZ, a red-eyed white Rex is called ermine. This is breed specific (and very confusing because ermine is non-extension chin in almost all other breeds here).
We do have chin in our Rex but definitely not this guy, he is REW. The young bunnies all have pink eyes. I'll try and get a photo of the light ones on the weekend.
I think we have a question of American vs NZ terminology going on as well
in NZ, a red-eyed white Rex is called ermine. This is breed specific (and very confusing because ermine is non-extension chin in almost all other breeds here).We do have chin in our Rex but definitely not this guy, he is REW. The young bunnies all have pink eyes. I'll try and get a photo of the light ones on the weekend.
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