What color is Banbury? Blue, seal, black?

[Juci]

Hi, I’ve been looking through the coat color posts and doing some research online but I’m having trouble getting an idea of what coat color/pattern my 4 month old buck is. I wondered if anyone here can help.

I bought him as one of my first breeder rabbits. He’s a backyard meat mutt, so I’m unsure of his lineage- I think the breeder mentioned silver fox. I believe his mother was an agouti but not sure about the father. His siblings that I saw when I picked him up were 1 agouti buck and 3 chinchilla does.

I tried to show as many different lightings as possible in the photos, and one of his undercoat which is very light grey. Since I’m raising meat mutts the color isn’t that important, but I am hoping to get some nice various colors for pets and pelts! I’d like to get an idea of what colors he might produce. Any input is very much appreciated.

I have one orange doe from a rew mother, and a squirrel doe with chinchilla parents. Has anyone on here tried combinations of these types of colors?

Thank you!

 

[judymac]

He's not a regular agouti, no light belly or eye rings. If he has silver fox in the pedigree, it would explain the ticking. If the buck has chinchilla siblings, he may carry chinchilla, may even be a self chinchilla. If you cross chin with orange, there's a good chance you may end up with ermines. Orange is an agouti based pattern, with the middle fawn band extended out to the tip, and usually a white base. Chinchilla removes the fawn from the agouti hairshaft, replacing it with pearly white--leaving bands of white, white, and white. The only color is usually a smudge of it on the face and ears. It is not a showable color for the vast majority of breeds (I think they call it a frostie in lops.) Chinchilla only affects the color of agoutis, when combined with non-agouti self colors, you can't see a difference much, except that sometimes chinchilla carriers have marbled brown-blue, or gray blue eyes (and sometimes normal brown eyes.)

If the siblings are agouti and chin, then the parents must have those genetics. It is possible that the mother was a full-color 'C' agouti with a chin c(chd) recessive, and the father was some color recessive to that (sable/seal/pearl c(chl), Himalayan pointed white c(h), or albino ruby-eyed-white (REW, c). Or, the mom could be agouti and the father chinchilla. Of course, when calculating possible color combinations, odds are just that, odds. Lady Luck has a lot more to do with what you actually get in a litter.

I'd guess since the siblings are agouti and chin, that the buck is a self-chin or self non-agouti, with perhaps silvering from the Silver Fox. He's not agouti, with no eyerings or white belly. He's not a tan/otter/marten, because they have eye rings and agouti markings as well, as do chinchilla agouti. I don't see any dark black on him anywhere, so he's probably not a black. He does have blue, along with some brownish which could be sun-fading if he's in the sun much. He could also be a blue with the chinchilla light c(chl) gene. They are born a solid color and then develop the lighter shading in the belly and lower sides, with that odd sepia tint. The light ticking seems to be in that area, so he could become a blue sable or seal. But, that would make for quite a mix of genetics, to have a sable-line kit born in a litter of chinchilla and agouti. If you mix that possible background with the orange agouti genetics, or the squirrel (which is a blue chinchilla), you've now added fawn non-extension ee, Agouti A, and dilute (for the blue) dd to the equation. REW is like a sheet over a rabbit's genetics, it could be any color at all, but the recessive albino gene trumps them all, and removes whatever color the rabbit would have been otherwise. So who knows what else is in the background. You could end up with just about anything with that mix.

 

[Juci]

He's not a regular agouti, no light belly or eye rings. If he has silver fox in the pedigree, it would explain the ticking. If the buck has chinchilla siblings, he may carry chinchilla, may even be a self chinchilla. If you cross chin with orange, there's a good chance you may end up with ermines. Orange is an agouti based pattern, with the middle fawn band extended out to the tip, and usually a white base. Chinchilla removes the fawn from the agouti hairshaft, replacing it with pearly white--leaving bands of white, white, and white. The only color is usually a smudge of it on the face and ears. It is not a showable color for the vast majority of breeds (I think they call it a frostie in lops.) Chinchilla only affects the color of agoutis, when combined with non-agouti self colors, you can't see a difference much, except that sometimes chinchilla carriers have marbled brown-blue, or gray blue eyes (and sometimes normal brown eyes.)

If the siblings are agouti and chin, then the parents must have those genetics. It is possible that the mother was a full-color 'C' agouti with a chin c(chd) recessive, and the father was some color recessive to that (sable/seal/pearl c(chl), Himalayan pointed white c(h), or albino ruby-eyed-white (REW, c). Or, the mom could be agouti and the father chinchilla. Of course, when calculating possible color combinations, odds are just that, odds. Lady Luck has a lot more to do with what you actually get in a litter.

I'd guess since the siblings are agouti and chin, that the buck is a self-chin or self non-agouti, with perhaps silvering from the Silver Fox. He's not agouti, with no eyerings or white belly. He's not a tan/otter/marten, because they have eye rings and agouti markings as well, as do chinchilla agouti. I don't see any dark black on him anywhere, so he's probably not a black. He does have blue, along with some brownish which could be sun-fading if he's in the sun much. He could also be a blue with the chinchilla light c(chl) gene. They are born a solid color and then develop the lighter shading in the belly and lower sides, with that odd sepia tint. The light ticking seems to be in that area, so he could become a blue sable or seal. But, that would make for quite a mix of genetics, to have a sable-line kit born in a litter of chinchilla and agouti. If you mix that possible background with the orange agouti genetics, or the squirrel (which is a blue chinchilla), you've now added fawn non-extension ee, Agouti A, and dilute (for the blue) dd to the equation. REW is like a sheet over a rabbit's genetics, it could be any color at all, but the recessive albino gene trumps them all, and removes whatever color the rabbit would have been otherwise. So who knows what else is in the background. You could end up with just about anything with that mix.

Thank you so much for all the info! Rabbit genetics is so interesting and complex- I will definitely update with some photos of kits, assuming all goes well this winter. I think the brown on him is from the sun. His area at his previous home had a lot more sun coming in and my rabbit area is in a sort of roofed carport, so almost total shade. He’s lost some of the brown that he had when I first got him, but time will tell.

I’m looking forward to seeing what colors he might throw, especially since it sounds like there could be so many possibilities. thanks again!

 

[Juci]

Here are some photos of Banbury’s kits! They are 12 days old. This was an accidental breeding, he dig under the divider and got into my orange/fawn female’s cage.

She had 5 healthy kits in an underground burrow! Two white, one black, one orange and a grey and white patterned.

The one that looks like a broken or possibly Dutch patterned kit was a surprise to me! Super cute though, I thought one parent has to be broken in order to throw a broken kit so not sure how that happened.

 

[Juci]

I meant to add a couple updated photos of Banbury- I think he got a bit darker. He’s 6 months old now. The orange rabbit is the mother, who came from a rew New Zealand.

 

[judymac]

I thought one parent has to be broken in order to throw a broken kit so not sure how that happened.

Yes, broken is a dominant gene. But, this definitely looks like a Dutch pattern, not so much the 'En' broken spotting gene. There are two ways to have the Dutch pattern show up from two non-Dutch parents. One is the Dutch spotting 'du' gene. True Dutch rabbits are double recessive 'du du'. BUT, the pattern can (but doesn't have to) show up when there is only one recessive copy Du du. So, a rabbit could be carrying the gene and not show it, but pass along a recessive du to a kit that does show it.

The same thing applies to the Vienna Blue-eyed white 'V' gene. A true BEW is recessive v v. But, a non-Vienna looking Vv carrier can pass along the recessive gene to a kit that does show it, and the markings are often very similar to the Dutch patterning. They may just be a white snip on the nose and toes, or a full Dutch pattern, or anything in-between. I have no idea why sometimes Vv is a non-Vienna-looking VC carrier, and other times a Dutch marked VM. There must be other modifiers or something at work, who knows.

This means that if either parent had a Dutch or BEW ancestor, even many many generations back, that same recessive could have passed along in the background, just waiting to be expressed.

 

[Juci]

Yes, broken is a dominant gene. But, this definitely looks like a Dutch pattern, not so much the 'En' broken spotting gene. There are two ways to have the Dutch pattern show up from two non-Dutch parents. One is the Dutch spotting 'du' gene. True Dutch rabbits are double recessive 'du du'. BUT, the pattern can (but doesn't have to) show up when there is only one recessive copy Du du. So, a rabbit could be carrying the gene and not show it, but pass along a recessive du to a kit that does show it.

The same thing applies to the Vienna Blue-eyed white 'V' gene. A true BEW is recessive v v. But, a non-Vienna looking Vv carrier can pass along the recessive gene to a kit that does show it, and the markings are often very similar to the Dutch patterning. They may just be a white snip on the nose and toes, or a full Dutch pattern, or anything in-between. I have no idea why sometimes Vv is a non-Vienna-looking VC carrier, and other times a Dutch marked VM. There must be other modifiers or something at work, who knows.

This means that if either parent had a Dutch or BEW ancestor, even many many generations back, that same recessive could have passed along in the background, just waiting to be expressed.

Oh okay, that is really interesting! So I’m thinking that it probably is the Vienna gene at work here, and my guess is that it’s actually on the mother’s side. The breeder I got her from also had a pet rabbit program going on where he was breeding blue eyed white lionheads. I never saw his male breeder rabbit, but he could definitely have been one of those Vienna carriers or a blue eyed white, making my female also a carrier. Maybe his lionhead male got into the New Zealand’s area or something. Very good to know. Thank you for all the info! I’m loving learning more about rabbit colors. It’s fun to be surprised by an unexpected color in the nest box, or in this case, burrow.