What color? Help with unusual litter

[Disney]

Hi,

A breeder friend of mine has a litter with a singlee lutino in it, and we are not really sure what it genetically is.
Either black or black tort, we think the last because he looks different than the usual "black lutino" that we had previously. So he is something else.
Could he be agouti masked by the wideband gene? Cause he looks selfs, similar to a blue tort.

Littermates are a brownish agouti.. either chocolate agouti or chestnut with wideband gene.
What do you think it is?

And 2 blacks.

Mom is a chestnut with the wideband gene, comes out of a red and lutino cross.
Babypicture of the mom.

Dad is a black out of a lutino and chocolate, he lives with me.

So we know that the doe carries non-extension, but not sure about the buck.
The lutino doe in my sig is also a daughter of the black buck, but from a different doe.
Her mom is the fullsister of the buck, so she comes out of a brother x sis mating.

 

[Dood]

Unfortunately we don't have Lutino over here, so i'm pretty sure everyone is unfamiliar with the different colours produced.

I believe Lutino's are pink-eyed fawn so genetically it is - A_ B_ C_ D_ ee W_ pp

The Black buck would be - aa Bb C_ D_ Ee W_ Pp

The chestnut doe would be - Aa B_ C_ D_ Ee Ww Pp

Tort is certainly possible.
If the rabbit is a self then wide band shouldn't have much effect but I know it can reduce smuttyness in Tortoisehell and make a tort have sharper colour so I would expect more of a two-tone effect.

If it is a fawn with wideband the rabbit should still be the faded orange/yellow of lutinos and not this greyish shade.

Another possibility is the steel gene that can make rabbits look black but it is dominant and I don't know if it is in the black bucks bloodline.

I think tort is the likely culprit, you could test breed to a tort and see what happens

 

[Disney]

Basically, you can get every color with the lutino gene.
We already have the chestnut, fawn, red, black, black otter, chocolate and now possibly tort.

The greyish shade of lutino is in indication of dark (black) pigment, that how we tell if they're full or non extension.

Steel is not in the line, god forbid.

The brown kit, do you think it's a chocolate agouti? If it was chestnut + wideband it should look the same color as mom, right?

Also, what do you think my doe is? We thought black but she shows 2 tones if you look closely, lighter on top and blueish on the sides and facemask, makes me think she's tort.
She is out of the same buck. The dam is the bucks fullsister.
Both black, just not sure if they carry non extension.

 

[Dood]

Basically, you can get every color with the lutino gene.
We already have the chestnut, fawn, red, black, black otter, chocolate and now possibly tort.

let me clarify - I meant how the Lutino/pink eye gene would affect how the fur looks such as making a gentically black rabbit look dove/grey and a chocolate one look champagne.

The brown kit, do you think it's a chocolate agouti? If it was chestnut + wideband it should look the same color as mom, right?

I would expect a lighter eye colour with a chocolate agouti. Wideband rabbits have a much wider first ring and almost always will have colour on the belly fur or at least leaves patches of red/orange/fawn on the inner thigh. Does the kit have any coloured areas on its belly? If not then it may just be lacking Rufus factors in the typical chestnut.

I do not see the tortoiseshell two tone effect in your doe, I think it is just sun bleaching, but I am not familiar with the different effects the Lutino gene has on rabbit coats and at least to my knowledge mice, gerbils and guinea pigs don't come in tort or else we could compare.