What color could this kit be? 3 week old pics :)

[volz83]

I bred an orange doe to a tort buck and they had five babies. One of the kits looks just like a tort except it was born with a very pink belly and pink around the mouth and nose area. Kit is now 2 days old, still very young. It has a little bit of pink around the eyes, a lot of pink around the nose/mouth and of course the belly. Their is a solid tort sibling and when compared to each other you can really see the difference. So I'm wondering if it could be a tort Otter or possibly an orange? I'm assuming if it's an otter anything, insides of ears should be pink correct?

Some background on the orange dam: She has a lot of tort, orange, a couple of creams, 1 opal and 1 chestnut in background. The breeder of the doe does not work with Otter, she hates the color and does not breed them. The one opal (4th generation) did come from another breeder who does work with otter. The dam's father was an orange (out of orange x tort) and the mother a tort (out of tort x orange). No heavy inline breeding either.

The sire to this litter is all tort and I know the breeder well and he only sticks to shaded so zero chance of otter, he has never had the color.

Correct me if I am wrong but since a kit receives one copy per gene per individual parent then my orange doe should be: Aa (A from dad and a from mom) correct? And if that is correct then she should not carry Otter. Dam is a black based Orange (breeder does not work with chocolate).

So if mom is a true orange and does not carry Otter then what could this kit be? I was thinking maybe a booted broken but as the fur is coming in it's very clear the body color is solid (no other spots) and the pink belly has a clear line all uniformly around it's belly/legs. Could it be a very smutty orange? It's for sure not a tort because of the pink belly. I have never worked with Orange before so I do not know what they look like as kits.

Of course I understand it is still really young and color will change as it matures but just wondering about the clear pink markings. :shrug: Any help is greatly appreciated! ^_^

kit in question, you can really see the pink around the eyes here and under the face/chin/neck

kit in question, belly

kit in question, belly

kit in question on the right

kit in question on the right

kit in question on the right, you can see how it has more pink around the mouth/nose area that the other kit who does have some but not as much.

 

[Dood]

Looks a lot like a tort otter to me :cheesysmile: but it is pretty early to tell

The doe must carry the tan gene and be Aat which can hide indefinitly in agouti based rabbits and only crop up then they are bred to a self

Another possibilty is an incredibly sooty orange/fawn but I've never seen one this dark as a kit

 

[volz83]

well shoot lol thanks Dood! I never planned on keeping the doe for long so I'll see if I decide to keep her or not after this litter.

Other than the Tort Otter kit, could any of the other siblings carry/hide the otter gene?

 

[Dood]

Any orange/fawn kits can hide it, any self (torts) cannot

 

[alforddm]

What Dood says in generally true, however, in your case, so long as the sire is a true tort (and not a torted otter) and the otter comes from the dam, none of the Red or fawn kits will carry otter. They would have gotten A from their dam and a from their sire. If they had gotten at from the dam it would express as and they would be ata.

 

[volz83]

Awesome! That is good to know! Sire is for sure a tort out of all shaded lines. So for the occasional tort otter kit out of the doe, I'm ok with breeding her more so long as she produces nice kits for me

 

[ladysown]

tort otters are mighty pretty so if you don't keep 'em, they should sell well to pet homes.

 

[volz83]

Thanks! Yes this kit is very pretty! This is what it looked like yesterday when I took pictures:

Its orange sibling <3

Here it is (on the far right) with a couple of it's sibling except of the kit on the far left (that kit is being fostered). The kit second in from the left is a lightly marked broken orange kit (pretty sure, very orange like the other broken orange). I think this kit is a charlie kit but it does have a partial butterfly marking on the right side of the nose so it can be shown (very happy about that!).

The whole litter together! 5 days old

<br /><br /> __________ Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:01 pm __________ <br /><br /> I was thinking about this kit and I realized that it can not be a tort otter because both the dam and sire also produced two torts in the litter. Which means orange mom has to be: Aa to even produce tort correct? If she carried "at" gene then tort is not possible but she produced two of them. Here is the kit now at 2 weeks old:

Does it look it orange to you? Not very familiar with the color just yet:

 

[Zass]

From here, it almost looks like a chestnut. :shock: :?

Maybe just a VERY sooty orange from crossing to tort lines?

Could we see a pic of the orange mom?

 

[ladysown]

why can't it be a tort otter? I have a tort otter buck, bred him to a tort doe. Got a mixture of torts and tort otters. It looks to me to have otter in it.

 

[volz83]

Here is the mother:

I should also mention that there are two broken orange kits in the litter as well which would rule out mom being a tort otter herself because you have to have "A" for orange and the sire only has "a" to offer. Here is one of the broken orange kits in the litter, it is much lighter than the kit in question.

ladysown- if the dam produced both orange and tort in a litter when bred to a tort buck then she can't carry otter gene because otter is "at" which is dominant over "a" and tort is: "aa". So I suspect that the kit in question is a sooty orange, mom isn't super clean herself in my own opinion but her two broken orange kits are very clean/bright orange. Also, because she produced orange with a tort that means she would have to be: Aa because the tort sire only has "a" to offer and each parent can only give one copy per gene so mom gave "A" to create the orange kits and dad gave "a" so their orange kits are "Aa".

 

[Dood]

Can you post a picture of the sire?

 

[volz83]

Yes of course ^_^

Here is the sire, he is a black tort with all shaded background. I know the breeder personally and he only sticks with shaded animals, never has had otter and he does not cross otter with his line.

 

[Zass]

Is there any possibility that we're seeing wideband chestnuts instead of orange?
That would only make sense if it was both the dam and kit.

 

[volz83]

I don't know much about chestnut. When I blow into mom's coat their are no visible signs of banding and undercoat color is white. Not sure if that helps?

 

[Dood]

Neither parent look wideband to me but they could be carriers

The mom is a very smutty fawn/orange and the sire is a rather dark tort( I see no evidence of otter in him) so I guess the kit in question is an incredibly smutty fawn

The lighter fawn may be wideband (but as a broken it is difficult to tell ) or just a lighter fawn :shrug:

 

[volz83]

so what is the difference between fawn and orange? Is it just the degree of darkness/lightness? Just wondering Ya I think it is just a sooty orange due to the colors in the litter.

 

[alforddm]

The difference between fawn and orange is wideband. Orange has wideband fawn does not.

 

[volz83]

Thank you! <br /><br /> __________ Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:33 pm __________ <br /><br /> Just thought I would post updated 3 week old photos of the smutty orange kit which is a little doe and my favorite so far in her litter.

here is the more solid patterned orange kit from this litter: