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akane

akane

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They are supposed to be chinchillas.... The sire is listed as chinchilla with all chestnut and chinchilla (thinking not regular chinchillas now) on top and rew all across the bottom. He grew up to be sable chin. The doe is regular black chinchilla out of my lilac ermine who is all ermine and chestnut on pedigree and a silver marten buck who is all chinchilla, silver marten, and otter on pedigree. I got these...



These are self and I would say definitely something with chl


This one is so light you can barely see it has a whiter belly and insides of ears but it is not ermine. It should only have a chance of being chd but see other 2 kits...


:? Something screwy happened here. I will take more pics in 5-7 days.
 
"Otter ermine" could happen and maybe all the differences I've seen are not carried by all rabbits. This is a litter that I believe were otter ermines and one otter point (otter point being a sable gene so sable point with marten instead of chin gene with marten)
Picture001.jpg


I don't have a lot of examples to go off of but compare in the first pic of this litter the head of the agouti compared to the color of the kit next to it. That's a common sable silver tint that I haven't seen in rabbits with the chinchilla gene. Then compare the darkened head and ears to an otter point and an otter ermine and you'll find the increased shading is more common in otter point. Those ears stood out from the first day they had fuzz as dark like a deep blue. Another thing you'll often find with otter/marten and even more in self is a tort like whorl across the sides of the body that isn't seen with agouti. The granddam of the above litter who was otter ermine with a self gene and a sable gene.
DSCN0616.jpg

I'm not sure this would show up in all otter/ermine though, it's far more common in typical self sallanders, and I'm not sure at what age it might be obvious. I bought her at an unknown age from a pet store because of her uniqueness and she was rather dark compared to most including her offspring. Almost sallander looking but she did throw martens and have the light belly, bottoms of feet, and underside of tail that is most obvious on non-self rabbits.

I've been debating if it isn't lilac causing a similar silver effect but shouldn't there be some cream/tan tint somewhere? It's a silvery blue like a young sable just much lighter. Maybe I'm way off but I'm kinda leaning toward agouti blue sable nonextension. What do we call that? :lol: Blue agouti sable point is no shorter. Blue point shagouti as some like to call the shaded/sable agoutis? Eventually it will get ticking or not get ticking and then it will get a shaded body or not get a shaded body and we will figure out 2 of the gene sets.
 
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I know for those who don't have a use for nonextension, recessive c locus rabbits they can all just be lumped as frosty or sallander and when I'm selling them I list them all as brown eyed whites. This is what I am concentrating on breeding though. If it has a chl instead of a chd or an at instead of homozygous self I need to mark the difference. It is all something different.
 
Not sure where you got the idea that Frostys only have the dark shaded/chinchilla and not light shaded/sable gene :shrug: In fact the majority of the Frosties I see are sable based

I prefer the term "ermine" for the chinchilla frosties since in my experience they are a much cleaner white with black ticking and actually resemble an ermine - the weasel - while the sable gene frosties are muddier looking :)

You say the buck "grew up to be a sable chin" which is genetically A_ B_ cchl_ D_ E_ so I do not understand why you are surprised you got a Siamese sables and possible smoke Pearl (blue sable) and possibly sable frosties in the litter :shrug:

Did you think the self chin doe was "cchd cchd" and didn't carry sable, himi or REW ?
 
I know others call both chinchilla and sable chinchillas frosties but that is no longer detailed enough for me. It would be like if someone put a black and a chocolate next to each other and we only called them self rabbits with no individual color names. Or like reading SOP colors where they lump together things that look similar but are not genetically that close with unusual names and you want to throw the thing because you can't figure out what genotype they are talking about and what might result from crossing them. (of course that's never happened to me before) :p:

I do not have a self chin doe. I have what should be AatBbchdchdDdee because her parents should not have any sable, himi, or rew in the background and have not produced any prior to this. The breeder kept track of genotypes and every kit thrown by every rabbit so it's not just what's on the pedigree. It's what has not been produced by all the litters of their ancestors this breeder has owned and bred. There should be no self and there should be no second c locus gene. I'm thinking it's the silver marten sire who was ata and gave the self portion but I'm not sure if it's her sire or her dam that is hiding chl. It really proves that you just can't get rid of recessives no matter how many generations you cull for. The buck of this litter did look chinchilla when young and the "chinchillas" on his pedigree are labelled just that. I think they are actually all sable chins. I'm not sure if that breeder knows it. The shading became apparent when I put him in with this chinchilla doe. I am going to test breed him to this doe's lilac ermine dam and see if she throws anything other than chinchilla and ermine.
 

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