What are the genotypes for silverfox & champagne dargents

[CochinBrahmaLover]

I've done some basic genetic research, and I mostly get it but..

What color exactly are black silver fox & champagne dargents? Their genotypes?

And, if I crossed a black SF with a CD, what would the kits look like?

Thanks very much

 

[akane]

Champagnes are just blacks aaB*C*D*E* (should be aaBBCCDDEE) with si3si3 (superscript the numbers). Silver fox are more tricky. By standard they should be aaBBCCDDEE with a lighter silvering. No one knows what silvering gene specifically it started with and they've since been crossed to argents. In reality instead of what should be they suffer a lot of cross breeding that champagnes don't see as much of. Many are also purposefully bred for more self colors like blue and chocolate instead of the black. As some people on here can tell you there are also major problems in the basic color breeding. Many of them aren't even self when they look self.

 

[Zass]

Yeah some lines of SF seem to already have si3 champagne silvering, indicating a previous cross..

One of my theories is that sometimes, when si3 rabbits are crossed with a line that has different type of si silvering, breeders end up scratching their heads over rabbits that don't have a whole lot of silver expressed.

 

[CochinBrahmaLover]

So assuming my champagnes haven't been out bred, than the genotype should be aaBBCCDDEE?

Regarding the fox: he's black, but comes from a chocolate father & has chocolate elsewhere in his pedigree.

So he would be aaB_CCDDEE?

So I'd get black & chocolate, with more silvering like a dargent but not quite?

 

[Dood]

If he has a chocolate father he must carry chocolate as his sire must give him one gene from the B-Locus and a recessive chocolate was the only option, so he is - aa Bb C_ D_E_ sisi

But as others have stated, there are several other possible genotypes the two could have :cheesysmile: and test breeding will reveal some of them

You won't get chocolate unless the Champ carries this recessive - any Brun in his pedigree? - but all the kits should be silvered, some more like a D'Argent and some more like a SFox

 

[skysthelimit]

but all the kits should be silvered, some more like a D'Argent and some more like a SFox

True, The silvering gene in Fox is not always 1 to 1, meaning crossing two heavy silvered parents do not always produce heavy silvered kits.

My friend and I found, that although we had a line that originally had good silvering, as we began to inbreed, the silvering diminished, and some kits never silvered.

About the fur--- they have two different types of fur, so you would also get kits where some have stand up, slightly longer fur in the first generation.

 

[CochinBrahmaLover]

If he has a chocolate father he must carry chocolate as his sire must give him one gene from the B-Locus and a recessive chocolate was the only option, so he is - aa Bb C_ D_E_ sisi

But as others have stated, there are several other possible genotypes the two could have :cheesysmile: and test breeding will reveal some of them

You won't get chocolate unless the Champ carries this recessive - any Brun in his pedigree? - but all the kits should be silvered, some more like a D'Argent and some more like a SFox

Oh yeah derp. No the dargent doe does not have any chocolate in her pedigree. She's purebred, all champagne.

But if I keep one of these babies I could potentially get chocolate dargents? That sounds very pretty! I was wanting to breed purebred dargents too of course, but I kinda wanna see a chocolate champagne lol.

Thanks! hope these guys will be good for meat.

 

[akane]

Sometimes a champagne will have chocolate or nonextension which would make a tort with their black base. Chocolate is a bit of a mystery since it's not that common in large commercial breeds but it can be from someone's attempt at breeding bruns. The nonextension comes from crossing to creme d'argent or NZ. Just cause it's not on pedigree doesn't mean it doesn't exist and doesn't mean you've got a complete purebred. I had a creme with NZ just off her pedigree and threw self offspring. I had some interesting silvered torts from her.

 

[CochinBrahmaLover]

While I'm not sure of what's being bred into them prior, the woman I got them from whose breeding them is absolutely breeding purebred show quality dargents. I'm honestly not worried that they carry any chocolate or anything, but it's possible and we'll see.

 

[Dood]

Brun D'Argent (or Argente Brun) is an ARBA "colour in development" (COD) so it's very possible a recessive chocolate is floating around in many Champaign D'Argent bloodlines :cheesysmile:

If you keep back a kit and breed her to her SF father you could get chocolate silvered rabbits but they would be mutts and not D'Argent - it would probably take a few generations of selective breeding towards the SOP to get this bloodline to resemble D'Argents

 

[akane]

I've had genes show up 12 generations later with no sign of them on pedigrees. The odds might be lower but there is pretty much no way to guarantee a recessive is gone no matter how long you breed the rabbits and sometimes even through test breeding if you get very bad odds while testing one rabbit. My champagnes threw a brun once and I got them from a guy who was involved with a group of people in a small area breeding champagnes for many years without adding brun or any other breed. I also once got a harlequin out of my chocolate mini rex line being crossed to a red mini rex line with again a known dozen generation plus however long the person had been breeding with no harlequin in their barn.

 

[CochinBrahmaLover]

Eh, I don't like the Bruins myself.

And yep I'm just breeding this for her first litter & meat. I hate killing the purebreds (which are $50-$150) but I'm fine eating $20 meat mutts

Ok ok I get it I may get chocolate hahaha. Genetics is very interesting and one reason I love them, you never know what you're gonna get