what are the chances?

[volz83]

Hello!

I am a breeder of holland lops and I breed for show quality but for colors as well. I've dug into genetics and have a fairly good understanding. I want to double check (question coming up) to see if I understand this correctly:

I have a broken black buck whom I bred to my only sable point doe.

The broken black is out of a solid black doe and a broken sable point. Dam has no colors on her ped except tort and her grandma was a solid blue. I'm pretty confident her c genes are: CC (both tort) because her parents are both solid blacks. The sire however is a broken sable point with lots of color in his ped. I know his hidden c gene is something recessive to sable point (Rew or pointed white) because he is a dilute carrier.

So as my understanding is: my broken black's c genes is of course capital C (tort because he is black) and then his hidden c gene must be either sable point (like his sire) or his sire's hidden c gene correct? I'm breeding for siamese sable so I'm trying get my genetics set up for this to happen. Could my broken black buck pass on his hidden c gene instead of his C to any of the kits?

 

[Dood]

Statistically 50% of the kits will get his recessive C-locus gene - shaded, himilayan or REW

A Siamese sable is a shaded black

A sable point is a shaded tort.

Because your black buck had a sable point father (he got his full colour gene "C" and his normal extension gene "E" from his black mother) he carries a recessive "c" gene and a recessive tort gene "e" and this increases your chances of getting torts and sable points rather than blacks and Siamese sables when bred to a sable point doe.

If your black buck got a shaded gene instead of himi or REW the you will also get seals in then litter which are Siamese sables with two shaded genes and they will look like blacks at birth. They should get the silvery glow to their fur at around 7 days but it will be less noticeable compared to the siameses sables

 

[volz83]

Thank you! I know siamese sable is a rare color and hard to breed for. Do you have any recommendations as to what to breed my broken black buck to? I know siamese sables need the capital E gene paired with the shaded (or sable gene hehe) gene to produce them. Hence why I had to mix in the shaded gene from the sables along with the blacks for the E extension gene. Why does tort have to be dominant lol Am I going about this ok? I know it'll take many breedings and several generations possibly to achieve my goal I love the seal color! I could always breed kits back to the broken black to?

 

[Dood]

Since we don't know what recessive your buck carries the breeding with the sable point will help.

If you get seals you know this is what the buck carries, if you get himilayan or REW you'll know he has one of these instead. If you only get blacks, torts, Siamese sables or sable points then were still in the dark about his hidden recessive :shrug:

Breeding seals to black himilayan or genetically black REW will only produce Siamese sables (assuming the parents don't share any other recessives) and is the quickest route.

 

[volz83]

Ok! So I'm hoping his hidden c gene is shaded then ^_^ if it's not and I get a pointed white or Rew then I'll have to go from their I guess lol. Getting a seal to keep to breed with would also be nice! Thank you for your help! Good to know I'm in the right direction for the most part ^_^ and I'm understanding genetics of the shaded genes. The litter is due on my son's bday, May 22nd lol I'll palpate her on day 14 to see if took. I'll keep you updated on litter pictures gonna see how many tries I'll have to do to get the genes to line up correctly for siamese sable hehe

__________ Thu May 22, 2014 11:12 pm __________

Update!

She gave birth today to SIX healthy little ones and no peanuts (however both parents are true dwarfs)! One looks like to be a broken black or possible broken seal (or maybe Siamese sable but probably not) however still way to early to know for sure. One looking like a broken black tort and four of them are completely solid pink, no markings so hoping they are REWS or could possibly be either: tort charlies or really light colored torts or sable points ^_^ Again only time will tell!

I do have one issue: she did not pull enough fur and I mean like a small tuff here and there.. I'm going to pull some cotton balls apart to act as her fur, all six though keep each other pretty warm. I'll put some light hay over them.. I'm hoping she'll pull some more fur but any suggestions would be appreciated.. this is my first time having a doe not pull nearly enough fur (thankfully the weather is quickly warming up here). I could bring them in at nights to ?

 

[Miss M]

Yes, you can bring them in at night, but if she pulls some more fur, you shouldn't need to.

 

[ladysown]

you can pull fur from her as well.. on the upper part of her lower belly, around the nipples, between the front legs etc. Should come out fairly easily as well. That'll probably be the best thing to do.

 

[volz83]

Thanks! I pulled fur from her this morning and all the kits are doing great!

__________ Sat May 24, 2014 10:43 am __________

Looks like I have FOUR broken sable points and two darker brokens, not sure if they are black/seal/or Siamese sable yet so does that mean my broken black buck has possible sable point gene as his hidden C? I'm guessing so, if I understand this, the sable doe has either himi or Rew, but since I've got four sables and no himi or rews then their "should" be a good chance he does carry the sable gene (I understand this is a best guess lol)? For seals (never had one yet) about what age can you start to know they aren't black?

I should mention, my broken black buck, his dad is a dilute carrier. His grandma on his mom's side was a solid blue so their is a good chance he is a possible dilute carrier. My broken sable doe, her sire was a solid blue so again she could be a dilute carrier as well. Which I would love it if one of these kits is a smoke pearl ^_^