Weird colored kits

[Lindsay Krawsczyn]

So, my sable point doe has had a second litter and one of the kits is looking a touch strange. When it was born it had black skin with pink around the belly and stuff, so did one of the other kits. Their father is a VM self black buck, so I assumed it was another VM. But now that the kits have fur whilst the one is what I expecting, VM self black with sort of Dutch looking markings like it’s dad, the other is black with very clear blue on its belly and some other spots. I’m not entirely sure why. I can get pictures if needed, but I was wondering if anyone knows a what exactly it is?

Oh and, for reference here’s the genotypes as far as I know of the parents
Sire: aaB_DdC_EeVv (The second C gene has to be either chin, Himi, or REW because he’s produced a couple of sable points)
Dam: aaBBDDc(chl)c(chl)eeVV (Mind you I’m only pretty sure it’s two chinchilla genes, not 100%)

 

[Alaska Satin]

So, my sable point doe has had a second litter and one of the kits is looking a touch strange. When it was born it had black skin with pink around the belly and stuff, so did one of the other kits. Their father is a VM self black buck, so I assumed it was another VM. But now that the kits have fur whilst the one is what I expecting, VM self black with sort of Dutch looking markings like it’s dad, the other is black with very clear blue on its belly and some other spots. I’m not entirely sure why. I can get pictures if needed, but I was wondering if anyone knows a what exactly it is?

Oh and, for reference here’s the genotypes as far as I know of the parents
Sire: aaB_DdC_EeVv (The second C gene has to be either chin, Himi, or REW because he’s produced a couple of sable points)
Dam: aaBBDDc(chl)c(chl)eeVV (Mind you I’m only pretty sure it’s two chinchilla genes, not 100%)

Yes, photos would be good, of both the kits and the parents.

Did the sire produce sable points with the same doe you described above? (Incidentally, if she's c(chl)c(chl) she's a seal point.)

Since both parents are selfs, all of the babies must be, too. Any time I see strange shading and/or color-changing kits, especially with a bluish tinge at the early stages, I immediately think of the sable/shaded allele. So it seems possible that your mystery kit is a seal, in which case you know your buck's second C locus allele is sable c(chl).

Also, it looks like you're calling c(chl) chinchilla; I think you're referring to the old moniker "chinchilla light" but it might make it easier to follow if you call c(chl) sable or shaded.

C = full color
c(chd) = chinchilla
c(chl) = sable aka shaded, where c(chl)_ = sable, and c(chl)c(chl) = seal
c(h) = himalayan
c = REW

Looking forward to pictures!

 

[Lindsay Krawsczyn]

Yes, photos would be good, of both the kits and the parents.

Did the sire produce sable points with the same doe you described above? (Incidentally, if she's c(chl)c(chl) she's a seal point.)

Since both parents are selfs, all of the babies must be, too. Any time I see strange shading and/or color-changing kits, especially with a bluish tinge at the early stages, I immediately think of the sable/shaded allele. So it seems possible that your mystery kit is a seal, in which case you know your buck's second C locus allele is sable c(chl).

Also, it looks like you're calling c(chl) chinchilla; I think you're referring to the old moniker "chinchilla light" but it might make it easier to follow if you call c(chl) sable or shaded.

C = full color
c(chd) = chinchilla
c(chl) = sable aka shaded, where c(chl)_ = sable, and c(chl)c(chl) = seal
c(h) = himalayan
c = REW

Looking forward to pictures!

Ah ok, thank you for the differentiation. I’ve been working with the genes involved for a while but only recently somewhat have names for them.

Also, I got pictures of the kit and parents. And yes he’s produced two with her and one with another doe



Also, I only noticed that his fur has a white/pale grey base today. And I believe he may have some silver as well due to his individual white furs.


She didn’t want to sit on the carpet on the table, also had to prevent her from escaping because she has twice now escaped her cage when she had kits and I had to catch her.






The two kits in question, the first I noticed only recently has this lighter belly and is from my first litter by the same sire and dam. The second is from my most recent litter, only a few days old as they were born on Saturday. I don’t think the kit from the first litter had the same pink skin on its belly and stuff as a kit, but I’m not entirely sure.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Ah ok, thank you for the differentiation. I’ve been working with the genes involved for a while but only recently somewhat have names for them.

Also, I got pictures of the kit and parents. And yes he’s produced two with her and one with another doe


View attachment 41382View attachment 41383
Also, I only noticed that his fur has a white/pale grey base today. And I believe he may have some silver as well due to his individual white furs.

View attachment 41384
She didn’t want to sit on the carpet on the table, also had to prevent her from escaping because she has twice now escaped her cage when she had kits and I had to catch her.

View attachment 41390
View attachment 41391
View attachment 41392
View attachment 41393
View attachment 41394
The two kits in question, the first I noticed only recently has this lighter belly and is from my first litter by the same sire and dam. The second is from my most recent litter, only a few days old as they were born on Saturday. I don’t think the kit from the first litter had the same pink skin on its belly and stuff as a kit, but I’m not entirely sure.

Ah, that's helpful. I think the current "weird" kit is a double-maned (lionhead) kit. Double-maned kits have those interesting pink wedges on their sides and hindquarters. Both of the parents look like they're single-maned, so it would make sense. So it could be a double-maned seal <aaB_c(chl)c(chl)D_E_MM>.

The first/older kit looks like a seal c(chl)c(chl) to me; although it could be a very dark sable, it usually takes longer to develop that dark of a color on a sable. If it's a seal, that means that both parents carry sable c(chl).

Thoughts on the parents:
The adult doe looks far too light to be a seal point, so I'd guess she's a sable c(chl)_, and I agree with you about her being pointed/non-extension <ee>. The buck's white hairs could be due to the vienna gene. Our VCs/VMs often have a lot of scattered white hairs. His pale undercolor is likely just what's considered poor depth of color on a black.

 

[Lindsay Krawsczyn]

Ah, that's helpful. I think the current "weird" kit is a double-maned (lionhead) kit. Double-maned kits have those interesting pink wedges on their sides and hindquarters. Both of the parents look like they're single-maned, so it would make sense. So it could be a double-maned seal <aaB_c(chl)c(chl)D_E_MM>.

The first/older kit looks like a seal c(chl)c(chl) to me; although it could be a very dark sable, it usually takes longer to develop that dark of a color on a sable. If it's a seal, that means that both parents carry sable c(chl).

Thoughts on the parents:
The adult doe looks far too light to be a seal point, so I'd guess she's a sable c(chl)_, and I agree with you about her being pointed/non-extension <ee>. The buck's white hairs could be due to the vienna gene. Our VCs/VMs often have a lot of scattered white hairs. His pale undercolor is likely just what's considered poor depth of color on a black.

Ok, this is very helpful. I’d say the second gene on my doe is probably c(h) if I had to guess, as I’m pretty sure there was a Cali at some point back in her line although it was quite a while ago. Funny thing though my stepmom was actually right about the double maned kit, she actually proposed that it might be because it’s going to have a mane like it’s aunt (I have a sister of the buck, she’s double maned as well). It’s very possibly my buck carries sable, I got him off a friend and his dad is a BEW who came from a pet store so zero clue on the lineage there or what colors he’s hiding. I knew for sure the doe had to be a pointed non-extension, as I owned both her parents and they where a Orange do and a Otter Tort buck so it’s really the only option genetically to end up with that sort of color