We Call A "Puppy Mill" By Any Other Name
- Thread starter tailwagging
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Some people (all the major animal rights groups) have decided that eliminating pet ownership is the best way to stop pet ownership problems. Sadly the public is deceived by these groups and the celebrities have made it worse by supporting such groups and donating tons of money.
tailwagging
Well-known member
true and by using their verbiage it gives them more credibility.
MamaSheepdog
Well-known member
The term "puppy mill" is officially banned from my vocabulary, as is "backyard breeder".
Starsider
Well-known member
MamaSheepdog":3eziwj1g said:
THANK YOU. My family raised labradors for years, and it annoys the living heck out of me when these terms get tossed around. Sadly I think a lot of animal lovers buy into concepts that they then parrot without understand exactly WHAT they're talking about.
grumpy
Well-known member
The HSUS does not donate "one-thin-dime" to animal rescue shelters. Not a single penny goes into the care or housing for animals.
Every cent they receive is allocated for legislative reform. Meaning the outlawing of animal ownership. That is their only goal.
grumpy.
Every cent they receive is allocated for legislative reform. Meaning the outlawing of animal ownership. That is their only goal.
grumpy.
I think everyone here knows that those terrorist groups are bad, but what else do you call the horrible mass breeders of puppies if you cant call them a puppy mill? The ones that crank out litter after litter without regards to the poor moms that are living in there own filth and being bred every cycle without a rest.
MamaSheepdog
Well-known member
JessicaR":3ptk16zs said:
Living in filth= bad.
Bred every cycle= maybe not.
I am beginning to question even this. Animals have the reproductive cycles they do for a reason. If it was physiologically damaging to them to have young at that frequency, their cycles would be different.
We have barn cats, and the females are not spayed. I do not manage their reproduction except to neuter the males that I don't want in the breeding program. The females generally have two litters a year... they don't have litter after litter after litter after litter all year long. The matriarch of the "herd" is Popstar, and she is five or six now, and has had "back to back litters" <GASP!> for all of those years. She is perfectly healthy.
Dogs come into season every six months. They have a gestation of two months. Most start weaning their pups between four to six weeks. Rarely will a dog allow nursing to continue until eight weeks. So she has at least two months, if not almost three, to regain condition before coming into season again.
I got my first dog 28 years ago, from a pet store. Even then, they were talking about the evils of "puppy mills" (oops- I wasn't going to use that word!) and she was without question the best dog I ever had. People generally don't raise animals they hate- they start breeding them because they enjoy them.
I'm sure my puppy was handled by her breeder. Who could help but snuggle an adorable pup? :dogkiss:
tailwagging
Well-known member
You call them sub standards breeders
If the bitch is in good shape it is more healthful for her to be bred. unlike us (human females of age) have monthlies a bitch only has two time a year that her uterus can be cleaned and that is when she whelps. An intacked bitch is more likely to come down with a uterine infection if she is not bred.
her uterus doesn't gets rests from hormones that brings her in heat. so if she is in good shape, it matters not if she breds and wheps pups over and over.
this is from the leading Dr of K9 Reproduction Dr. Hutchison
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1224
"When a bitch ovulates, whether we breed her, don't breed her, or pretend she's not in season, the progesterone HAMMERS the uterine lining for sixty-plus days.
The progesterone level is NOT affected by pregnancy. In the cow for example, if the uterus does not get communication from the fertilized egg by day 16, the whole process starts over again. In the bitch, you don't have that luxury.
Even though the bitch's body produces the progesterone, the progesterone is inflammatory to the uterine lining, so that after a heat cycle, the bitch's uterus is never as healthy as it was before the heat cycle. So we go from a normal uterus... and this start's with the first cycle of her life...to an endometritis to endometrial hyperplasia, which some of you have been asking about - this is when the uterus starts to thicken and we start to get bubbles in the lining of the uterus - these changes affect the uterine lining so much so that eventually the uterus cannot control the bacteria, and the ultimate end stage is pyometritis.
So, in the bitch... So breeding back to back... or even back to back to back to back....this is WHY it's such a crime we don't have Cheque drops on the market now, to preserve the bitch's uterine lining."
"How often to breed your Bitch
The experts all seem to agree that the least healthy approach for a breeding bitch is to skip heat cycles and keep the bitch unbred. This is not only Dr. Hutchinson's philosophy as Dr. Threlfall at Ohio State Univ. teaches the same thing (my husband just attended a Cont. Ed seminar on Canine Repro earlier this year at OSU). This is NOT new information, either. I was reading Dr. Billinghurst's book GROW YOUR PUP WITH BONES, which addresses the health of puppies as well as their parents and reproductive issues. This is not a new book (maybe 10 years old?). He states the same thing. Canines are meant to be pregnant on every heat cycle.
As Dr. Hutchinson explains it in his seminars, the hormones are the same and the bitch goes through the same changes whether they are bred or not. So when the hormones 'do their thing' to a uterus that does not have pups, it is "hammered" (his term) by the hormones and causes aging and thickening which makes the uterine lining less conducive to implantation and more prone to infection over time. The recommendation it to breed them young, breed on every heat cycle until you are done, then spay them. THAT is the healthiest scenario for your breeding bitch. While Dr. Threlfall and Dr. Hutchinson don't see eye to eye on some issues, this one they completely agree on. I have to wonder if anyone has found a vet knowledgable on repro issues who states otherwise.
Yet there are still people who refuse to believe this advice. I have often wondered about the practice of condemning back-to-back breedings. I wonder if it stems from the way bitches blow their coat post weaning which may lead people to feel the bitch is not recovering well. I know that our girls blow their coat at the same time they would after being in heat (about 4 months) whether bred or not, but the post puppy coat loss is usually more. I suspect that this appearance made people believe that the bitch was completely run down and it "was hard on her" having the pups.
Unfortunately, in our current PC environment, we want to suggest that people who breed more than one litter every several years are simply money hungry puppy mills and some of us are quick to condemn their practices based on this mentality. So if someone follows the EXPERTS advice concerning their dogs, the self appointed Ethics Police talk poorly of them ignoring the fact that what they are doing is biologically in the BEST interest of their dogs.
I think many people want to act like dogs are little people in fur coats. They want to suggest that what we may feel is how a dog feels. While I wouldn’t personally want to have a new child every year, I do believe that my dogs have always adored having puppies. Granted, there are certainly reasons why some bitches should probably not be bred again. Some are poor mothers. Some don't produce much milk. Some can't whelp or conceive w/o veterinary intervention. But the bottom line is that in a healthy normal bitch, breeding every heat cycle for as many litters as you want from that bitch, then spaying her, is the most healthy way to go. And that is from the people who are qualified to say so.
You know, cattle are kept pregnant every year starting when they would "freshen" (have their calf) at 2 years of age. They breed them until they won't breed anymore. If a cow is "open" (not pregnant), the farmer either tries to get her bred or sells her because wintering an open cow is a big money loser. Yes, it is certainly a business having calves (no one denies that), but the cattle certainly seem fine being pregnant all but three months of the year and well into their teen years. Just as an aside, cows/heifers start having calves at 2 years of age (earlier and they aren't fully grown so often can't calve on their own). They are bred back EVERY year. I know cattle is a money business and many of the Doggy PC Police want to say that breeding more than a few litters a year is only out of greed, but cattle NEVER get a break and apparently have no ill effects as a result. Also, dairy cows won't have milk unless they are bred back each year. But my point is that this does not seem to effect their health in a bad way at all and has been the way cattle have been kept for many many decades. If you tried to tell them that it is too hard on the cow to be pregnant every year, they would think you were a COMPLETE idiot!
The bottom line is that if you are a breeder… well, you breed! Perhaps it is time for some of us to rethink our beliefs that dogs should get a break between heat cycles for their health because under normal circumstances, this is simply not true. "
http://www.everythinggolden.com/new_page_195.htm
If the bitch is in good shape it is more healthful for her to be bred. unlike us (human females of age) have monthlies a bitch only has two time a year that her uterus can be cleaned and that is when she whelps. An intacked bitch is more likely to come down with a uterine infection if she is not bred.
her uterus doesn't gets rests from hormones that brings her in heat. so if she is in good shape, it matters not if she breds and wheps pups over and over.
this is from the leading Dr of K9 Reproduction Dr. Hutchison
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1224
"When a bitch ovulates, whether we breed her, don't breed her, or pretend she's not in season, the progesterone HAMMERS the uterine lining for sixty-plus days.
The progesterone level is NOT affected by pregnancy. In the cow for example, if the uterus does not get communication from the fertilized egg by day 16, the whole process starts over again. In the bitch, you don't have that luxury.
Even though the bitch's body produces the progesterone, the progesterone is inflammatory to the uterine lining, so that after a heat cycle, the bitch's uterus is never as healthy as it was before the heat cycle. So we go from a normal uterus... and this start's with the first cycle of her life...to an endometritis to endometrial hyperplasia, which some of you have been asking about - this is when the uterus starts to thicken and we start to get bubbles in the lining of the uterus - these changes affect the uterine lining so much so that eventually the uterus cannot control the bacteria, and the ultimate end stage is pyometritis.
So, in the bitch... So breeding back to back... or even back to back to back to back....this is WHY it's such a crime we don't have Cheque drops on the market now, to preserve the bitch's uterine lining."
"How often to breed your Bitch
The experts all seem to agree that the least healthy approach for a breeding bitch is to skip heat cycles and keep the bitch unbred. This is not only Dr. Hutchinson's philosophy as Dr. Threlfall at Ohio State Univ. teaches the same thing (my husband just attended a Cont. Ed seminar on Canine Repro earlier this year at OSU). This is NOT new information, either. I was reading Dr. Billinghurst's book GROW YOUR PUP WITH BONES, which addresses the health of puppies as well as their parents and reproductive issues. This is not a new book (maybe 10 years old?). He states the same thing. Canines are meant to be pregnant on every heat cycle.
As Dr. Hutchinson explains it in his seminars, the hormones are the same and the bitch goes through the same changes whether they are bred or not. So when the hormones 'do their thing' to a uterus that does not have pups, it is "hammered" (his term) by the hormones and causes aging and thickening which makes the uterine lining less conducive to implantation and more prone to infection over time. The recommendation it to breed them young, breed on every heat cycle until you are done, then spay them. THAT is the healthiest scenario for your breeding bitch. While Dr. Threlfall and Dr. Hutchinson don't see eye to eye on some issues, this one they completely agree on. I have to wonder if anyone has found a vet knowledgable on repro issues who states otherwise.
Yet there are still people who refuse to believe this advice. I have often wondered about the practice of condemning back-to-back breedings. I wonder if it stems from the way bitches blow their coat post weaning which may lead people to feel the bitch is not recovering well. I know that our girls blow their coat at the same time they would after being in heat (about 4 months) whether bred or not, but the post puppy coat loss is usually more. I suspect that this appearance made people believe that the bitch was completely run down and it "was hard on her" having the pups.
Unfortunately, in our current PC environment, we want to suggest that people who breed more than one litter every several years are simply money hungry puppy mills and some of us are quick to condemn their practices based on this mentality. So if someone follows the EXPERTS advice concerning their dogs, the self appointed Ethics Police talk poorly of them ignoring the fact that what they are doing is biologically in the BEST interest of their dogs.
I think many people want to act like dogs are little people in fur coats. They want to suggest that what we may feel is how a dog feels. While I wouldn’t personally want to have a new child every year, I do believe that my dogs have always adored having puppies. Granted, there are certainly reasons why some bitches should probably not be bred again. Some are poor mothers. Some don't produce much milk. Some can't whelp or conceive w/o veterinary intervention. But the bottom line is that in a healthy normal bitch, breeding every heat cycle for as many litters as you want from that bitch, then spaying her, is the most healthy way to go. And that is from the people who are qualified to say so.
You know, cattle are kept pregnant every year starting when they would "freshen" (have their calf) at 2 years of age. They breed them until they won't breed anymore. If a cow is "open" (not pregnant), the farmer either tries to get her bred or sells her because wintering an open cow is a big money loser. Yes, it is certainly a business having calves (no one denies that), but the cattle certainly seem fine being pregnant all but three months of the year and well into their teen years. Just as an aside, cows/heifers start having calves at 2 years of age (earlier and they aren't fully grown so often can't calve on their own). They are bred back EVERY year. I know cattle is a money business and many of the Doggy PC Police want to say that breeding more than a few litters a year is only out of greed, but cattle NEVER get a break and apparently have no ill effects as a result. Also, dairy cows won't have milk unless they are bred back each year. But my point is that this does not seem to effect their health in a bad way at all and has been the way cattle have been kept for many many decades. If you tried to tell them that it is too hard on the cow to be pregnant every year, they would think you were a COMPLETE idiot!
The bottom line is that if you are a breeder… well, you breed! Perhaps it is time for some of us to rethink our beliefs that dogs should get a break between heat cycles for their health because under normal circumstances, this is simply not true. "
http://www.everythinggolden.com/new_page_195.htm
MamaSheepdog
Well-known member
What great information! I had no idea that the uterine lining stayed inflamed. I can hardly wait to share this with my friends who bred our dog Levi. Looks like we'll be having more stock dog pups a lot sooner than I thought! 
I already have people on a waiting list too!
:thankyou:
I already have people on a waiting list too!:thankyou:
Devon's Mom Lauren
Well-known member
I won't quote your whole post tailwagging but I have always thought the same... if the dog couldn't support a pregnancy and birth then it won't cycle!! Same with anything/one! This is an animals' prime directive, to eat(survive) and pass on its genetic code by procreating. It is not "hard" on them ESPECIALLY with all the so called fancy diets available and the vast knowledge of proper nutrition available to us now. I wish people would just stop and think about things a little more and stop being "sheep"
puppy mills exist and the conditions in many are foul
I'm often amazed that mothers in such poor health will reproduce and lactate that genetic hard wiring is pretty intense ...i suppose the brokers do the dams a service by buying the puppies young so the mom can regain her condition - can't say i'd ever thought of it quite that way ...
I'm often amazed that mothers in such poor health will reproduce and lactate that genetic hard wiring is pretty intense ...i suppose the brokers do the dams a service by buying the puppies young so the mom can regain her condition - can't say i'd ever thought of it quite that way ...
I do beleive there are irreponsible breeders out there, just out to make a profit with out regaurd to the health of the breeder animals or the young that they sell and I try to watch out for folks like that. On the other hand I think if there wern't so many of these groups, gov. agencies, and politics, trying to stick their nose where it dosn't belong that a repectable profit could be made breeding animals responsibly.
i don't think animal welfare groups are responsible in any way shape or form for breeders who are only driven by profit - nor do I think that they are a reason for responsible breeders not getting rich quickly
the responsible breeders I know (and I am only thinking dogs here) breed on a timeline that has little to do with time and a lot to do with making the best matings they can to get qualities in a litter they want, they vet their breeding stock carefully even if there is a high cost to some of the testing
the responsible breeders I know (and I am only thinking dogs here) breed on a timeline that has little to do with time and a lot to do with making the best matings they can to get qualities in a litter they want, they vet their breeding stock carefully even if there is a high cost to some of the testing
ZRabbits
Well-known member
grumpy":1btcq07j said:
So true Grumpy. Nothing but political lobbyists.
Remember, do as I say, not as I do. They have more knowledge than us lowly people. They will tell all what they can and can not do. That's all this is.
Karen
tailwagging
Well-known member
Thanks for the great post Tailwagging! That really explained a lot.
And I am glad to know I am not the terrible person others think I am because I decided to breed my sheltie again this heat cycle. Belle is 5 y/o and has a heat cycle every 10 months, I wanted 1 last litter from her before I spay her, and didnt want to wait until she is 6.
And I am glad to know I am not the terrible person others think I am because I decided to breed my sheltie again this heat cycle. Belle is 5 y/o and has a heat cycle every 10 months, I wanted 1 last litter from her before I spay her, and didnt want to wait until she is 6.
Devon's Mom Lauren
Well-known member
What exactly is the problem with breeding dogs and making a profit?? After all one can accomplish all the tests and shows and vetting and still ask what one wants for the price of the pup.I don't get this. The problem lies with the public who all think they are "entitled" to something for almost nothing. The general pet buying public needs to VALUE their pets a lot more than they do now. Why should a breeder lose money by properly looking after their animals and breeding correctly, just so someone can come along and get it for almost nothing??? I think its the buyers who need to smarten up not only in their initial willingness to only pay a certain price right up to how THEY care for their new pets as well.
3mina
Well-known member
It's the whole 'family member' idea that makes the word profit so offensive, since family is 'adopted' rather than bought, though with the size of most human adoption fees....
I get don't like to see so many dogs bred because they arn't like rabbits and such were they can always be used for food, reptile food, ect. And the pounds are full. I'm not saying don't breed dogs or buy from a breeder but if a pound dog will work, why not give one a second chance. On the other hand I got a pound dog and 3 years and a $300 x-ray later found out he a missing right hip socket, 2 pins in his right knee and severe arthritis at only 5. But that was murphys law and he's still an awesome house pet. By all means if you need a pure bred because you want to show or working line dog for ranch work ect. seek a good breeder, if you just want a good pet drive to the pound and seen if there's some mutt that pulls at your heart strings.<br /><br />__________ Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:02 pm __________<br /><br />I do agree with Lauren on buyers smartening up though in general, people are cheap and the current economy dosn't help.
