Vaccinating puppies

[Cottie]

I'm going to make the puppies as attractive as possible to adopt them out. Make sure they've got their shots, basic training, send them with a bag of food and maybe even a small crate (if I can find a good deal on them). Which means I need to start the medical end of it.

Called the vet...it's going to be $250 a crack to get all the puppies vaccinated/dewormed. And needs to be done twice. :x

The vet tech suggested I go to one of the livestock stores and just get the injections and dewormers, and do it myself. The vet wasn't in the office today, but she suggested I call back to see if he'd cut me a break on doing a basic exam on them at a later date.

TSC and Farm & Fleet carry Spectra 5. It's $7 per shot. They're 4 weeks. So I give them one now, one at 8 weeks, one at 12 (if they aren't adopted out), and hopefully they're adopted out by 16 weeks when they need rabies and bordatella.

Durvet® Canine Spectra 5™ is a combination of immunogenic, attenuated strains of Canine Distemper, Canine Adenovirus Type 2 (CAV-2), Canine Parainfluenza, and Canine Parvovirus Type 2b, propagated in cell line tissue cultures. The CAV-2 fraction cross-protects against respiratory infection caused by infectious canine hepatitis (CAV-1).

The vet said they use Nemex as their dewormer, which is also available OTC. This is saying to do 2, 4, 6 and 8 weeks. I missed 2 weeks. So I'd do 4, 6, 8 and 10? http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=1083

Pfizer NEMEX™-2 (Pyrantel Pamoate) Oral Liquid is a single-dose treatment for the removal of large roundworms (Toxocara canis and Toxascaris leonine) and hookworms (Ancylostoma caninum and Uncianaria stenocephala) in dogs and puppies.

So...throw the puppies on the postal scale, dose the Nemex appropriately by weight and I'm set? (Assuming I can find someone to do the injection because I pass out in the presence of needles.) Anything else I should get them? Anything I should know to watch for before I do this?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

They're 4 weeks. So I give them one now, one at 8 weeks, one at 12 (if they aren't adopted out), and hopefully they're adopted out by 16 weeks when they need rabies and bordatella.

Holy guacamole! :shock:

Over twenty years ago, both my dog and cat were diagnosed with cancer. Conventional treatment was insanely expensive, and the prognosis was poor, so I took my dog to a Holistic vet.

When I told him that not only the dog, but one of our cats had cancer as well, he asked what vaccine protocol I followed. At the time, most animals were vaccinated at 6, 9, and 12 weeks, with rabies given at six months, and yearly boosters thereafter. That was the protocol I followed, and he said that was why my pets had cancer.

His protocol was to start vaccines at 12 weeks, preferably with single toxin vaccines spaced a week or so apart. Rabies was given as by law, but most of his clients never gave yearly boosters, but some did give them as their pets were entering their geriatric years. He had a very low incidence of cancer in his patients.

It is impossible to find single toxin vaccines over the counter, so I give one shot at 12 weeks, and that is all. I give DHLPP, a five way vaccine, since Corona is not a problem in our area. Some of my dogs are not vaccinated at all, with the exception of rabies.

None of my cats have been vaccinated in those twenty years, and of all the dogs I have had, none have ever become ill with any diseases that are commonly vaccinated against.

As for Bordetella, it is like the common cold in that there are numerous strains (over 60, I think) and the vaccine only covers a few of them. I never give Bordetella to my animals.

When I managed a dog kennel, it was required. If a dog didn't have it, it was given a dose when it came in for boarding, and quite a few of those animals started coughing during their stay or shortly after going home.

When I have a litter of pups, I offer to give the vaccine at time of purchase, but most buyers opt to follow the 12 week protocol instead.

The vet said they use Nemex as their dewormer, which is also available OTC.

The active ingredient in Nemex is Pyrantal Pamoate. I buy horse wormer containing the same ingredient which is much more affordable than the products marketed for dogs and cats.

Pyrantel pamoate is usually dosed in dogs and in cats at 2.5 to 5 mg per pound (5 to 10 mg/kg) once, repeated in three weeks.

http://www.petplace.com/drug-library/py ... page1.aspx

 

[Cottie]

Thanks for the info, MSD! I'll hold off on vax'ing them. It seemed a little excessive to me, too, but that's what everything says to do.

I think for the first worming I'll buy Nemex. The pups aren't even 1 pound yet, and they're so little. I'm going to stick to book for that at least.

I called the local shelter to find out if they know of any low-cost vet programs. She gently pushed for me to relinquish them...not sure how I feel about that. :-/

 

[Tagcon]

I have beagles and my schedule is a 5 way puppy shot at 8 weeks 10 weeks 12weeks and 16 weeks rabies at 6mos and booster at 1yr. I have hunting buddies with beagles that do 6 weeks 9 weeks and 12weeks same 5way puppy shot it seems like a lot of shots but shots are cheap compared to the price of one of these pups, if you ever lose one to parvo you'll see why so many shots (its not pretty)
Terry

 

[Bad Habit]

Thanks for the info, MSD! I'll hold off on vax'ing them. It seemed a little excessive to me, too, but that's what everything says to do.

I think for the first worming I'll buy Nemex. The pups aren't even 1 pound yet, and they're so little. I'm going to stick to book for that at least.

I called the local shelter to find out if they know of any low-cost vet programs. She gently pushed for me to relinquish them...not sure how I feel about that. :-/

If it were me, I'd be very angry. You're obviously trying to do the right thing and get them good homes, shots, basic care. It's not like you're churning out litter after litter of puppies from the one female, trying to make a quick buck on the "designer dog" fad. The shelter wants you to turn over these puppies after you've spent your money raising them, so THEY can sell them and make money. If it were me, there would have been a fair bit of cussing, and then the phone would have been slammed down rather hard.

 

[skysthelimit]

I follow the minimum vaccination protocol as well. There have been numerous studies by Cornell Vet School, first, the reason why they give so many shots is they don't really know when the mothers immunity goes away, some time near 14 weeks, so just in case they give a series of shots. My adults were vaccinated, so it's possible for pups to get antibodies shed in the saliva from them. As long as they pups don't go anywhere, they are fine. One of my puppy buyers ignored that and although the pup was vaccinated before he left, he still came down with something very parvo like. What a mess. I had no problem with the rest of the litter. I believe I gave a 7 way shot. I don't give rabies before 6 mos. When I first started showing I gave Bordetella, I don't any more. At the moment, Boomer has never had any shots, but he rarely leaves the house, and Phoenix has had one.
Second, the vaccinations last longer than we think. We don't vaccinate our kids every year, why dogs. The effects last at least 7 years.

My dogs are vaccinated after they leave my property, at 12 weeks.

 

[Dood]

My dogs are on minimal vaccinations due to the reasons MammaSheepdog mentioned and my show pup follows the Dr.Dodds vaccination protocol but that was agreed to with her breeder before she was born

to make the puppies as attractive as possible to adopt them out

I'd start advertising them now and de-worm them as you planned. I dont like to use horse wormers as the medicine doesnt always get distributed evenly throughout the paste and I recommend using fenbendazole (Goat safeguard ) instead.

I would do a vaccination at 6 weeks and adopt them out at 8 weeks at the earliest. I would then offer a second set of shots at 10 weeks to the buyers and vaccinate any remaining pups at 10 weeks to be certain they ALL get a booster to ensure good immunity. I would not do a 3rd set of shots but Parvo is not a big problem here and if it is in your area I might do a 3rd Parvo shot only

pushed for me to relinquish them

NO WAY would I take UN-vaccinated puppies (or any animal) anywhere near a shelter!!!! I don't even like taking healthy, fully vaccinated dogs by one! They may be worried you wont screen buyers and the pups might end up there in a few months when they are not so cute and cuddly OR they may just want them to adopt out for $300 each and to help fund the dogs and cats they look after who are not as adoptable.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

I called the local shelter to find out if they know of any low-cost vet programs. She gently pushed for me to relinquish them...not sure how I feel about that. :-/

On your behalf I am LIVID. :evil: You are doing right by these puppies...she had NO reason to even mention it!!! I would have expected a GOOD shelter person to thank you for looking into it and would hand over any info available...NO WAY should you surrender them!!! She's out of her mind!!!!!!!!! :evil:

 

[Cottie]

I called the local shelter to find out if they know of any low-cost vet programs. She gently pushed for me to relinquish them...not sure how I feel about that. :-/

On your behalf I am LIVID. :evil: You are doing right by these puppies...she had NO reason to even mention it!!! I would have expected a GOOD shelter person to thank you for looking into it and would hand over any info available...NO WAY should you surrender them!!! She's out of her mind!!!!!!!!! :evil:

She did give me some info - mostly that AC has to help me (do I REALLY want to get involved with AC? probably not). But the shelter couldn't help.

My issue with relinquishing is, mainly...why? I'm still on the fence whether I'll start sending them to new homes at 8 or 12 weeks. I've read a lot of articles suggesting 12 weeks should be considered the minimum age to separate a puppy from its litter. If I relinquish before then, it would either be bad for them mentally or I would have to send Rat Dog along (not gonna happen).

And, by 12 weeks, especially if I'm crating them, all the real expense has happened. So I'd be relinquishing vax'd, house broken, crate trained, leash trained dogs (well, the start of all that at least)? Hurr?

She was very kind and polite. She didn't get overly militant, except to say that people I adopted to probably wouldn't spay/neuter. Well, so I take them to the clinic before someone takes them home and that's included in the price. Same thing the shelters do, isn't it?

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

I called the local shelter to find out if they know of any low-cost vet programs. She gently pushed for me to relinquish them...not sure how I feel about that. :-/

On your behalf I am LIVID. :evil: You are doing right by these puppies...she had NO reason to even mention it!!! I would have expected a GOOD shelter person to thank you for looking into it and would hand over any info available...NO WAY should you surrender them!!! She's out of her mind!!!!!!!!! :evil:

She did give me some info - mostly that AC has to help me (do I REALLY want to get involved with AC? probably not). But the shelter couldn't help.

My issue with relinquishing is, mainly...why? I'm still on the fence whether I'll start sending them to new homes at 8 or 12 weeks. I've read a lot of articles suggesting 12 weeks should be considered the minimum age to separate a puppy from its litter. If I relinquish before then, it would either be bad for them mentally or I would have to send Rat Dog along (not gonna happen).

And, by 12 weeks, especially if I'm crating them, all the real expense has happened. So I'd be relinquishing vax'd, house broken, crate trained, leash trained dogs (well, the start of all that at least)? Hurr?

She was very kind and polite. She didn't get overly militant, except to say that people I adopted to probably wouldn't spay/neuter. Well, so I take them to the clinic before someone takes them home and that's included in the price. Same thing the shelters do, isn't it?

Basically!!! My dad found a cat once...when he learned that the no-kill shelters were (and ALWAYS ARE) full and not accepting more, and didn't want him to go to a kill-shelter...I aimed my dad at the local low-cost spay/neuter, and they did shots for next to nothing too. He adopted the cat out to his girlfriend's brother.

Eight weeks is perfectly fine for a puppy to go to a new home...any younger isn't optimal but there's no reason I've ever known to wait longer unless it's a show-breeder waiting to see which one(s) are cream of the crop so to speak. People have tried to tell me twelve weeks but never conveyed a REASON, lol.

 

[Cottie]

Eight weeks is perfectly fine for a puppy to go to a new home...any younger isn't optimal but there's no reason I've ever known to wait longer unless it's a show-breeder waiting to see which one(s) are cream of the crop so to speak. People have tried to tell me twelve weeks but never conveyed a REASON, lol.

I was reading about puppy development and it was making a case for important "dog skills" learned between 8 and 12 weeks from the mother and the littermates. Not vital, dog will be broken without them skills, but skills nonetheless. Mostly the socialization aspect.

Since I fully intend on letting people know we will take the pup back if it isn't a fit, I see no logical reason to not hold on to them for an extra 4 weeks, get in that extra training and perhaps psychological boost, and improve the chances someone will keep it.

 

[DogCatMom]

Eight weeks is perfectly fine for a puppy to go to a new home...any younger isn't optimal but there's no reason I've ever known to wait longer unless it's a show-breeder waiting to see which one(s) are cream of the crop so to speak. People have tried to tell me twelve weeks but never conveyed a REASON, lol.

Eight weeks is considered the early limit of sending puppies to new homes, at least in Berner circles. Nine to ten weeks is considered ideal. Anything beyond that is up to the breeder.

The extra time beyond eight weeks (here's your reason, Kyle, at least the one I've been given *and* observed myself) is for the puppy to develop bite inhibition by playing with littermates. When a littermate is nipped/bitten too hard, the playing stops. Puppies separated "too soon"--and this can vary by breed and even by individual litter or puppy--don't develop reliable bite inhibition. The extra time is also good for puppies to begin learning basic obedience: Sit; Gentle; Take It! Puppy, Come! how to walk on leash/collar; how to eat out of a bowl rather than stand in it.

Puppies also need to learn bite inhibition with people separately from bite inhibition with other dogs. Without this training, every bite is a CHOMP. I had one of these land sharks; I brought him home at 22 weeks, pretty much as a rescue/rehome dog. Even when he wanted to be a good dog and "Take It" nicely, he simply didn't know how. His breeder hadn't even ever put him into a collar.

Teaching him bite inhibition with "people hands" took my other two dogs *and* me. His manners with other dogs were always wonderful, though! The bite problem was only with people. :roll:

W/regard to puppy vax: Dodds first, Dodds last. She's amazing. Even standard vets have changed the way in which they administer vax to cats since the stats on cancer at vax sites came out several years back. Read up on the reduced-vax schools of thought, make your decision, and go for it.

W/regard to shelter "gently advising relinquishment": I have a standard phrase I've used for years when a conversation goes weird on me: "Sorry, I think I have a bad connec--" But I hang up in the middle of the word "connection."
I don't know what it's like where you live, RJ, but where I live, the very last thing a shelter wants is a litter of puppies. They're full right now, more than full, with kittens and puppies! Who on earth could afford full-cost spay/neuter for a litter of pups???!!! Unbelievable. Incredible. And a few other adjectives....
The way my recently deceased Berner's breeder handled the question was that part of the adoption fee (purchase price, whatever...) was refunded upon proof of spay. Maybe you can do something similar? Charge an adoption fee and, when the new family provides proof of spay/neuter, refund part of the fee? Having, of course, provided them info on where low-cost spay/neuter is available in your region. Just shaking my head about that shelter worker's response; very weird.

 

[Secuono]

I use TSC 7 way for vaccines, 8, 10, 14wks. You have to vaccinate for Parvo at the very least, as well as being dewormed.
Some States allow you to buy Rabies vac, others allow you yourself to inject it. Most States do not allow either option.
I hate how vets want the exam for every little thing! Cash cow for them, that's for sure.
There's little proof some vaccines work, like Lymes. My dog was vaccinated for it, he still got it.
Bordertella/kennel cough is just a 'dog cold' and will go away on it's own in a healthy dog, or you can use a cough suppressant and it will go away.
Also, you are the owner and paying the vet, you tell them what drug/test to do, not the other way around, they can only suggest. You can also return pills that are not used & unopened liquids can be returned.
For shots, you just draw it into the correct gauge needle, inject into the animal or draw the activator and inject into the dry powder, roll bottle, draw again and inject into the animal. These are under the skin injections, pinch and lift the skin, stick and draw to make sure no blood is drawn, then inject.
Dewormers have measurements on the bottle, unless you are trying to use livestock drugs on a dog.

 

[Cottie]

W/regard to puppy vax: Dodds first, Dodds last. She's amazing. Even standard vets have changed the way in which they administer vax to cats since the stats on cancer at vax sites came out several years back. Read up on the reduced-vax schools of thought, make your decision, and go for it.

This?
http://drjeandoddspethealthresource.tum ... iuXRTZ-Cn8

I don't know what it's like where you live, RJ, but where I live, the very last thing a shelter wants is a litter of puppies. They're full right now, more than full, with kittens and puppies! Who on earth could afford full-cost spay/neuter for a litter of pups???!!! Unbelievable. Incredible. And a few other adjectives....

That's what I thought, too. She told me their goal was to get every dog spay/neutered, and the bit about people I adopt them out to probably wouldn't do it. And they're picky about who they adopt to.

I'm leaning toward her being genuinely concerned about the welfare of the animal(s), and hoping it wasn't the case as suggested above by Dood. She called back a little after I spoke to her about whether the shelter vet could do the vax for a fee, told me they couldn't and asked me to "keep [them] in mind" if I couldn't find homes for the dogs.

My dogs, my problems, is how I look at it. They'll stay with us until we can find homes for them. That's why I want to get them started off right, because I think it will increase the odds of them finding permanent homes. I'd hate to send them to a shelter when they're wee pups, have them adopted out, only to be dumped in another shelter, and shuffled from place to place. It happens. It could happen with me adopting them out, but at least I'll be able to tell them to bring the dog back to me.

 

[DogCatMom]

Yes, that's Dr. Jean Dodds' website. She hedges her language on the website, but in interviews (I've read a few in Whole Dog Journal), she's much more forthright about the damage that traditional vaccination protocols can wreak on dogs. And cats.

 

[JessicaR]

I would at the very earliest shots at 8 weeks and make sure its the one without lepto in it. Small dogs tend to react badly to it.

I also like to keep pups until they are at least 8 weeks, 10-12 is better, but that's because I make sure they are started on crate and potty training, and well socialized before going to their new home, and as a bonus I teach them to sit, come and shake.

 

[Honorine]

Dosage for Pyrantel Pamoate is a half cc per 4 lbs, you cannot overdose even a small puppy on it. I regularly worm chihuahua puppies starting at two weeks with it, half cc, less than a pound, no problems. I used to use Safeguard years ago- first you have to dose for three days instead of one, and I was still having problems with worms. Switched to pyrantel and it was much better. YMMV. I sometimes use a Neopar parvo only shot at 5 weeks old, then a 5 way at 8 weeks, before I take them to the vets for their vet check. I then shoot them at 11, and then 14 weeks if their still here. Rabies I give at 6 months these days, used to wait longer but the state wants them vacced at three months, I don't like that. I rehome at 8 weeks quite often. I don't feel that there's that big of a difference waiting till 10 or 12 weeks, I spend a lot of time with them when they are here, feel its more individual temperament and lack of early socialization that can cause problems. As for them being vet checked I vet check because I guarantee my puppies, I have to know if there's something wrong with them before I sell them. It also helps me find problems in my lines, and helps me make better breeding decisions. Your not in that position, and I assume your not selling them for a sizable amount so in theory you don't have to vet check them. You vac, you worm, you agree to take them back, you ask a modest fee and the rest is up to them. They do have to get the puppy vacced again, so they can get it vet checked then. I just took 5 puppies to the vet, no shots, no worming, $100. Used to be half that 2 years ago. Don't bust the bank trying to 'do the right thing' you are doing the right thing, your taking good care of them, feeding them, getting them vacced and wormed, and trying to find the best homes you can for them. I know your not going to make money on them, believe me puppies can eat a lot, even small breed ones can eat quite a bit in 4 weeks if you keep them till 12 weeks. If you can rehome them at 8 weeks I would, good luck.

Oh, forgot to add I don't use the horse paste, I buy the 16 ounce bottle meant for pinworms in humans, think Jeffers or Revival has it, costs $16 or $18.

 

[skysthelimit]

I do 12 because I'm not giving shots until they are closer to loosing the natural immunity. If I'm not selling till 10 weeks, I might as well hang on till 12, and give the first shot. The last time I gave a shot and sent an 8 week old out, it became ill, because the person decided to take him out and walk him around.

 

[JessicaR]

A problem I HAVE IS MY VET DOES NOT honor shots given by breeders. If its not given by a vet he will vaccinate again, even if its only been a day. I had this when I got my 1 sheltie 10 years ago, breeder gave a shot and vet said it didn't count. Of course back then I didn't know about over vaccinating and took my vets word that he needed another one. So when I got my other dogs I didn't take them in until they needed their next shot.

 

[Cottie]

Eventful day for the pups!!

We did the first dose of the dewormer today. The dosage was 5ml per 10lbs. Each pup is ~1.5 pounds, so we did just shy of 1ml.

Also did the first bath and another nail clipping. Their nails grow like weeds!

In addition to all that, and a heavy dose of outside play time, they got an upgraded "nest" and were introduced to T-dog. I was slightly concerned he'd go nuts and get a little aggressive, but instead he let them beat him up. The yelp he let out when Runtly bit his tail was priceless. He was also nearly as doting as Rat Dog when it came to cleaning up after them. We're going to let T-dog develop a good relationship with the litter (and let them get a good bit bigger) before we let Gunner anywhere near them.<br /><br />__________ Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:17 pm __________<br /><br />Oh and some puppy pictures from last week. =)

And the little girl I'm in love with. I do not need another dog...I do not need another dog...I do not need another dog...

We're going to do some pics with the ducklings, kits and pups tomorrow morning before it gets too hot.