Urgent quick question

[Miss M]

Our buck, Pinto, was absolutely fine this morning. Went out there a short time ago, and he is exhibiting signs of wry neck. Turned head, darting eyes... when ILoveBunnies tried to pull him out, he started this freaky barrel roll. When he finally stopped, she got him out.

He is not just our buck, he's my son's pet.

I have given him, according to http://www.barbibrownsbunnies.com/ecuniculi.htm, his first dose of ivermectin. It was dated 7/11... but most meds are good way past, if they are well-kept. I'll get some fresh within the next week, as that's when his next dose will be.

I was going to give him antibiotic as recommended, but I think I found a "better place" to put my syringes. Now I have to find them.

The thing is... I gave him a hay ball the other day. I mean, a ball that you stuff with hay. It doesn't stay shut on its own, so I closed it with one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/ACCO-Binder-Mediu ... pring+clip

This morning, the ball was open, and one of the metal things you use to operate the clip was missing. I assumed it was in the flooring of the rabbitry, and needed to look for it there (after not finding it in his yellow play bin or anywhere else in his cage). I didn't see it on the rabbitry floor, but hadn't gotten a magnet out or anything to help me look.

I don't really see how he would have eaten the thing, but if he did, could it produce symptoms that look just like wry neck?

 

[Marinea]

Yikes! Sorry I can't answer your question, but wanted you to know that *fingers crossed for a good outcome*

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Oh no! Poor Pinto, and Bunny-Wan!

No, I doubt the binder clip would cause those symptoms. It could possibly cause an obstruction over time if it gets wrapped with fur, but otherwise I doubt there would be any issues. It is doubtful that he ate it in any case.

The heat may have overstressed him which caused the symptoms to appear.

I hope he will be okay. :clover:

 

[AmysMacdog]

Uh oh! I hope he gets better for you!

 

[Miss M]

Thank y'all!

MSD... that's what I thought, once I got to thinking about it. I figured something like that, the rabbit might sit huddled in a corner grinding its teeth.

Poor baby... he's in a carrier inside now, just a few feet away from me, with lots of pine pellets, pine shavings, and hay on top... I fully expect to have to force fluids after we eat supper, which we haven't done yet (9:15).

Every time he moves, he freaks out because he can't make his body do what he wants. He also has these little spasms.

I have told the kids that if he does not show any improvement after a week (per Barbi Brown's site), there will be nothing I can do for him at that point.

The two cages of growouts that were to either side of him are now beside each other away from the other rabbits. I don't really know if it matters, though, because I bred Pinto to Squeak a few days ago, and tried to breed him to Yuki. She flatly refused.

I want to say... I have never ever seen wry neck myself. I knew what it was as soon as I saw him, because of RabbitTalk. Thank you guys, once again. I knew exactly what to look for, brought up Barbi's page and scanned it quickly, dug out my ivermectin, and got to work. Because of you.

 

[ladysown]

ah nuts... wish you weren't dealing with this.

Isn't barbi's protocol two-fold using baytril as well???

Hope you can bring him round.

 

[Miss M]

I've gone back over her page some just now, since I just wildly scanned it earlier. Okay, not wildly, but I was looking over it pretty fast.

She says, "I no longer give antibiotics unless there is an active infectious process involved such as respiratory infection or purulent weepy eye."

Pinto showed no sign of any issues at all until sometime after taking care of the bunnies this morning. When we went in this evening, I came around to feed him, and he was hiding behind his yellow play bin. I almost didn't mess around with him, even though I usually do, but I put his food in his bowl and then picked up the bin. I gasped when I saw him. He still has no signs of other infectious issues.

The other thing I realized as I was reading was that her dosage of 1/10cc per pound of weight was for 1% ivermectin. I gave him 1.87% ivermectin. I confess I guestimated a half cc, as I couldn't remember where my syringes were, and couldn't think of anything else I had that I could measure that with.

Of course, mine is old, so who knows how much of the medicine he actually got.

 

[xa.logan]

Yeah. Ivermectin isn't harmful until up to like 100x the normal dose too. Gotta love the stuff. What exactly causes wry neck?

 

[Miss M]

It seems it can have a number of causes... it is generally attributed to the protozoa Encephalitazoon Cuniculi, usually abbreviated E. Cuniculi. It can also be caused by things like stroke, ear infection, and brain tumor.

Wry neck caused by E. Cuniculi has been linked pretty often to dehydration, which seems to create a favorable environment for it.

I'm trying to find information on its transmission:

Is it transmittable to humans?
Just how contagious is it between rabbits?
How long do I have to watch my other rabbits before I know they are okay?
Assuming he recovers, at what point is it safe to keep him in the rabbitry again?

He drank some diluted tea for me, and I saw him eating a little hay. He really seemed to enjoy it when Mom was holding him in his carrier, and I was holding his head, and we were petting him. I think he felt really secure, rather than feeling like he was about to fall over. He's not usually a big sucker for pets, but he'd have let us go on all night this time.

 

[WildWolf]

I'm so sorry to hear that, Miss M. Sounds like you're doing all you can, and digging up as much info as possible. Hope it all works out!

 

[Cottie]

I hope he's doing better. Not sure if you found this info out yet or not.

Is it transmittable to humans?
Yes, but only common in immunocompromised individuals (HIV/AIDS and post-transplant are the most common reports).

Just how contagious is it between rabbits?
Most rabbits have been exposed. The fungii typically lays dormant.

How long do I have to watch my other rabbits before I know they are okay?
Assuming he recovers, at what point is it safe to keep him in the rabbitry again?
Data is scarce. Most papers on it say an animal never fully recovers. It's thought the initial transmission is either from the mother or from feed. At which point, it can lay dormant for for any length of time.

There is also a suggestion that the infection itself is not what causes the symptoms, but the immune system's response to it.

Research has shown this parasite to be present in 52% of healthy domestic rabbits

http://www.woodward-vets.co.uk/informat ... niculi.pdf
https://www.arba.net/PDFs/e.cuniculi.pdf
http://www.birdvet.com.au/exotics%20care/E.cuniculi.htm
http://www.hrschicago.org/241/old-rabbi ... s-part-ii/

I would give him at anti-inflammatory at this point. Ivermectin does't sound promising to treat neurological problems, but I don't know what else would be an option.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3109655/
Don't give corticosteroids.
There also appears to be a genetic factor in mice, and I'm sure it's present in rabbits as well.

This is very long and I can't read all of it without coffee, but it is a thesis on transmission, pathology and testing in humans and small mammals. http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/availa ... Jordan.pdf<br /><br />__________ Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:38 am __________<br /><br />Reading a few other things, everything says t-cells are absolutely critical in treating the infection. There are no drugs that directly affect it. How do you increase t-cell production in rabbits?
http://www.broadinstitute.org/files/sha ... dia_wp.pdf

And another study on its treatment, using rabbits. http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/fenbendazole.pdf

 

[Beekeeper10]

I am so sorry Miss M. I hope he feels better soon.

Tommy

 

[MaggieJ]

So sorry to hear that Pinto is ill, Miss M, especially as he is Bunny-Wan's pet as well as your herd sire. I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions to help. I've not had to deal with wry neck - yet! Sounds like RJSchaefer found a lot of information about it, so hoping there is something there that helps.

 

[Miss M]

Thank y'all! I sure appreciate it.

RJS, thank you for all the information! I've read a good bit of the links now.

I can give fenbendazole even though I've already given ivermectin, right? I'm not even confident that he got a good dose of ivermectin, since it's out of date, and I think it spent a couple of months in my uncle's storage shed.

Should I continue ivermectin treatment if I start fenbendazole?

Anto-inflammatory, but not corticosteroid... I assume that would be aspirin?

He's taking small amounts of diluted tea, and he took a little blackstrap-coated oats a bit ago. We noticed he's dropped weight. As I've seen here and there, I do think this is dehydration-related, as we did change his water bottle about a week ago -- from a sprung post to a sprung ball. Didn't think it would make much difference. Do I need to inject a water bolus under his skin, or is that not necessary as long as he keeps drinking?

 

[mystang89]

Sounds like all the information has been given, just wanted to stop by and say that I hope he gets better for you.

 

[coffeenutdesigns]

This might be off the wall, but is there any chance at all the little clip could've gotten down in his ear causing inner ear problems? Might be a long shot, but I would rather rule out everything possible. The only reason I ask is because my dog one time got a tick way down in her ear and started running around with her head all twisted sideways and her mouth opened weird and she couldn't walk straight. Once I got the bug out, she flapped her head a few times and was fine.

 

[Miss M]

Thanks, Mystang!

Coffeenut -- I hadn't thought of the clip getting into his ear, but I did look down his ears last night. All looked well there. Also, he hasn't displayed any discomfort with scritches around his ears and such. Thank you for the thought, though! Goodness knows, rabbits are multi-talented! :x

I don't think I ever mentioned the size of the clip... they come in all sized... the piece that is missing is one of the wire "handles", and it's about an inch and a half long, and an inch wide where it connects to the clip.

I just got back, and I got some chewable baby aspirin, and some fenbendazole medicated pellets. I figured, I'm going to have to crush some of his pellets and mix them with water to syringe into him anyway, might as well go this route. 1/4 pound is enough to treat a 250-pound rabbit, and cost only $1, instead of $11 for the tube that would treat a 1250-pound rabbit. He's about 5 pounds, so a little math, and I'll be in business.

 

[AmysMacdog]

Prayers for the little guy sent your way Miss M. Hope he feels better soon.

 

[Miss M]

Thanks, Amy!

Okay, I found some stuff on fenbendazole, and what I could find talked about using it at 5 mg/kg to basically prevent infection, as far as I can tell.

At http://www.hoppinherdofhares.com/wryneck.html I found:

What I have found to work the best for treating rabbits with Wry Neck are treatments for parasites:

-20mg per kg (2.5 lbs) of Fenbendazole given orally every day for 4 weeks. Fenbendazole can be found as the puppy wormer, Panacur. Panacur is an over-the-counter medication which you can get at any vet. This is probably the most important part of treatment. Fenbendazole works *very* well to completely rid the rabbit of Wry Neck.

This is for rabbits not already being treated, and showing symptoms. So this is what I am going to try.

It divides out to .32 ounce of feed per day. I have some softened that I am going to try to get into him in just a minute.

 

[Cottie]

How's he doing?

Aspirin is probably a good choice. NSAIDs have demonstrated anti-fungal properties against some strains. I found it out that the author of your quote said s/he doesn't give NSAIDs. The symptoms are a result of the inflammation from the parasite, so I would think removing the stress of inflammation from the system would be just as important (in the short term) as knocking out the fungus.