URGENT - Need help! 8 day old kits almost dead

[jimmywalt]

We have 8 day old Holland Lop kits (born on Thanksgiving). They have been doing fine and growing like usual. The first 3 days we gave the doe parsley to make sure her milk was flowing. We assisted her feeding them on about days 2, 3 and 4. Then we noticed by looking at their bellies that she was feeding them so we stopped helping her (holding them in a blanket between our legs with her straddling on top).

On about day 5 & 6 we actually saw the doe in the nest box at 5:30pm each day feeding them.

They live in our garage attached to the house here in Michigan. Temps in our garage the last week have been between 45 and 50 degrees. Kits are all nestled in their nest box with hay and a small amount of the does fur (she didn't pull much)

This evening we checked on the kits and they all felt pretty cold. One even looked dead with it's mouth open and all 4 legs straight out. We brought them in the house and put them in a warm towel and on top of a heating pad in a basket. After about 30 minutes they all seemed to "come back to life" and start to wiggle around. Their bellies looked okay, but we thought we would bring the doe into the house and see if we could assist her in feeding them again. Only about 2 or 3 out of 6 seemed interested. Not sure if they all had already been fed a couple hours earlier, or maybe they were still too cold to care.

So tonight we have decided to keep the nest box in the house (temp will stay around 68 degrees all night). Hopefully they will do fine, but I'm concerned, will the doe reject them now that the nest box is gone over night (she's been with them since the day they were born). Please tell me it will be okay. We don't want to lose these cute little babies.

Should we give the doe more parsley to make sure the milk is still flowing?

Any other suggestions??? Thank you!

UPDATE

Well it wasn't the cold that turned out to be the problem.............. the doe's milk has dried up. They probably haven't eaten in a couple days.

We woke up at 6:30am and checked on the kits that we had in the house last night. Most of them weren't snuggled together in the nest, but instead scattered around the nest. We tried to warm them up thinking that was the problem and then it dawned on us....... Even though their bellies looked full, they were probably bloated and hadn't eaten. Three were dead, 4 more "barely" alive.

I ran to Tractor supply and got some goats milk in a can. My wife got the corn syrup and egg and we mixed it together from a post she found here at RT. We have spent the last 3 hours trying to feed them with eye droppers and keep them alive. One eventually died. The last three seemed to drink and kick a bit. We now have them back in the nest box... Hopefully getting strong, and staying alive.

We put more parsley in with the doe hoping to get her milk back in.... if that's even possible. I mean, what do we have to lose at this point???

We will check on the kits in a bit and hopefully they will come back. This is the hardest morning we have ever had with our rabbits. It really hurts to see these little bunnies die in our hands from hunger.

Of seven kits only three are left....

Wondering if the doe has mastitis? Should we try to breed her again and give her "one more chance"? Her first litter of 2 or 3 were born dead just over a month ago, so we bred her right away and were so happy when she gave birth to 7 beautiful kits..... but now look what has happened.

Suggestions?????

 

[the reluctant farmer]

I have meat mutts, not lops, but I've never had a problem. I routinely pull my nestboxes and just return them for feeding. I don't think you'll have a problem. When she is full of milk and ready to be nursed, she'll be happy to see them. Since you saw her in at 5:30, you know what time in the afternoon to take them out. If she only feeds them once a day, that's theonly time you need to take thm to her, then bring them back in when she's done. If you're not sure if she feeds them in the morning, pop them out for a while when you're making breakfast then bring them back in.

 

[Marinea]

When I breed during the winter, I always take the nest boxes in and out to the doe. I take them out in the morning, and the doe usually jumps right in to nurse. When she is done, I bring the box back inside and bring it back out in the evening. Rinse and repeat. I usually do that until they start getting out of the box, or about two weeks. Then I will leave them outside. I will remove their nest box and put in a three sided box (no front or bottom), stuff a lot of hay into it, and give the kits that to stay in to snuggle.

I have yet to have a doe reject the kits or fail to feed them. You could also add some dryer lint to the box to give the kits some extra warmth.

I would leave them inside tonight and take them out in the morning and see how it goes.

*fingers crossed*

 

[Zass]

I take the box all the time in winter too. It's easy to keep it in...and you have lots of time to socialize the kits! Sometimes I feel this can be easier on nervous does, as being confined in close quarters with their offspring really isn't natural for them.
When I had that oddly aggressive doe who attacked a kit due to me leaving a buck's scent on it, I took the box and didn't return it until she was full of milk. I knew she would nurse right away, and be in a mellower and more accepting mood immediately afterwards.

Worked like a charm. I just didn't pet those kits again after petting my buck, and I didn't breed her again either.

What I'm trying to say is that pulling the box for 24 hours can be a great way to save kits who appear to be temporarily rejected by their mothers. Rabbits do not need constant contact with their offspring like some other animals need, and sometimes doe's just need a little time for their hormones to settle down ( and their teats to fill up )

I tend to believe that a doe full of milk is about as accepting as an animal can get. It is easier to get rabbits to foster another doe's kits than any other animal I know of.

If you add something for the kits to snuggle in, they will not need the heat pad inside. Heating pads come with their own dangers. Always make sure warm babies can get away if they become overheated.
If you add a bedding material, make sure whatever you use cannot tangle around the babies. My own dryer lint is unsuitable, because large amounts of long Newfoundland hair gets mixed in with the fuzz.
I have also seen one kid's traumatic post (on a different website) about a kit losing a foot after they had supplemented the nest with poly-fill and it became tangled and cut off circulation.

 

[Miss M]

I'm with the others, it sounds like it would be good to keep that litter inside for now. Supplement the little fur they have with teased cotton balls, feathers, lint, or something.

Once they have their little "hot pocket" going again (as Grumpy called it), where they're all snuggled in there and you could just about cook an egg on them, they should be able to keep it that way. They just need some more insulation for their nest.

 

[jimmywalt]

UPDATE

Well it wasn't the cold that turned out to be the problem.............. the doe's milk has dried up. They probably haven't eaten in a couple days.

We woke up at 6:30am and checked on the kits that we had in the house last night. Most of them weren't snuggled together in the nest, but instead scattered around the nest. We tried to warm them up thinking that was the problem and then it dawned on us....... Even though their bellies looked full, they were probably bloated and hadn't eaten. Three were dead, 4 more "barely" alive.

I ran to Tractor supply and got some goats milk in a can. My wife got the corn syrup and egg and we mixed it together from a post she found here at RT. We have spent the last 3 hours trying to feed them with eye droppers and keep them alive. One eventually died. The last three seemed to drink and kick a bit. We now have them back in the nest box... Hopefully getting strong, and staying alive.

We put more parsley in with the doe hoping to get her milk back in.... if that's even possible. I mean, what do we have to lose at this point???

We will check on the kits in a bit and hopefully they will come back. This is the hardest morning we have ever had with our rabbits. It really hurts to see these little bunnies die in our hands from hunger.

Of seven kits only three are left....

Wondering if the doe has mastitis? Should we try to breed her again and give her "one more chance"? Her first litter of 2 or 3 were born dead just over a month ago, so we bred her right away and were so happy when she gave birth to 7 beautiful kits..... but now look what has happened.

Suggestions?????

 

[MaggieJ]

Have you examined the doe's nipples to be sure she has dried up? Is there any sign of swelling, discoloration, hardness, heat that would suggest mastitis? I've never heard of starving kits having bloated bellies--usually they are flat and wrinkled--but perhaps someone else has experience of this.

I definitely would NOT rebreed the doe at this point. You need to be sure what is happening with her before you give her another try.

 

[Zass]

Bloated and spread out...where have I heard this before...

It keeps cropping up and we usually do not get a definite answer as to the cause on here. I've yet to see it in my own kits, but I sure would like to know how to prevent it.
Could it possibly be unconnected to feeding, perhaps a bacterial problem?

 

[Sagebrush]

That is something I have been thinking on as well. I have not seen this in my own kits *knocks on wood*.

If it is bacterial, could it be something passed from the mother to the kits?
OR could it be that their digestive systems did not properly form?

 

[Zass]

That is something I have been thinking on as well. I have not seen this in my own kits *knocks on wood*.

If it is bacterial, could it be something passed from the mother to the kits?
OR could it be that their digestive systems did not properly form?

Lets not rule out the possibility of bacteria that can be contracted from other species too. Like humans for example. Or even picked up from something common, like our food or other pets and passed via handling. Hmm...I dunno. The early handled kits on our "Everyone's litters picture thread" do not seem particularly susceptible to illness.


I've heard before that chilled kits cannot digest their food, but, I've also seen posts by others where kits died like this during warm summer weather.

 

[Sagebrush]

That is a very valid point Zass. I have both cats and dogs here as well. Since my rabbitry is outside I also have birds that fly in and around my cages. When I go to handle the newborn kits I will wash my hands and dry them well before I go to reach into the nestbox. Though the fact that it is happening in both warm weather and cold weather is what leads me to think that possibly their digestive systems might not be properly developed.

If ever I have one of these kits in my nestbox I will have to do a necropsy to find out just what happened.

 

[Miss M]

Jimmywalt, I'm so sorry! I just figured they'd gotten cold.

I hope the formula helps them through... you can feed them more than twice a day, if they're not taking in much.

 

[jimmywalt]

Well 3 are still alive. Just kills me when they die in my hand.

The 3 that are still with us we've tried to feed the goat milk/formula. They take a little, but not like it's their mom's. We've flipped her on her back twice today and they try to nurse and move from teat to teat, but it doesn't seem like they get anything. They are so weak that it's really had for them to move when they are trying to feed from the doe.

Just don't know what to do. We are keeping them in the house until they either get to the point of eating pellets/water (for the next 4 weeks) to until they pass.

It's getting harder by the minute. We started this around 6:30am this morning, 12 hours ago and we are both tired as can be. This takes a lot out of a person.

I wish they could get better and the doe could nurse them. I sure hope we don't spend the next days/weeks trying and then have them pass. If they have to go, I wish it could be soon. I'm sure they are in misery, and we are as well.

I'm just beside myself.......... We just don't know what to do.

 

[Zass]

You have my sympathy, as I've been there a few times. It's exhausting, and you very well could lose them no matter what you do.
With only three remaining kits, it might be best to keep a corner of the nestbox on the heating pad.

 

[dangerbunny]

I'm sorry to hear this, always hard when you lose them. I lost the momma to a litter that was just under two weeks and hand fed them all, they did fine. Not sure about the bloating you describe, if it was an adult I would use infant gas drops but don't know how that would work in a kit, anyone have an idea?

What I would do is build them a nice warm nest, if they are weak they won't put out as much body heat. Leave them alone, I know it's hard but unnecessary handling may stress them out when they are so little. remember Momma only hops in twice a day to feed them! Offer them a feeding of goat's milk twice a day, I aimed for morning and night feeding. Check on them by sticking your finger in the nest to check temperature.

Good luck!

 

[Miss M]

Yes, the simethicone baby gas drops have been used in kits by some members.

Some does don't let down milk when on their backs. More will when you do it the other way you mentioned, with the kits underneath in your lap.

But it sounds like they really need you right now, since they aren't strong enough to nurse anymore. Make sure the formula is very warm, and wrap the kit up in a rag to help keep it clean, dry, and warm. I usually have tried to persist until they've had at least two droppers in a feeding. Some have taken it if I stick it in behind the front teeth, others would sip it from the dropper right in front of their noses. Sometimes, the kit would go to sleep, and I'd have to keep agitating it to get it to keep eating. I noticed they generally would eat more that way, and started doing it even if they weren't falling asleep.

Twice a day, and try not to spend a lot of time on them in between, to help keep you from burning out and becoming sleep-deprived.

As for not taking them from the nest much, it isn't really stress I'd be concerned about, but increased calorie burning and heat loss.

If they're going to go, I hope they are merciful and go quickly, as you hope. But I really hope you can save them!

 

[jimmywalt]

My wife checked them this morning, I just didn't have the heart to since I figured they would have passed. She said that they were nice and warm and looked okay and were wiggling more than they were yesterday.

So HOPEFULLY the doe is getting milk, letting it out, and the kits are eating. It's so sad that we lost 4, but if we can keep these 3 alive that will be nice.

We are giving the doe parsley even though we have read to only give this on the first couple days. Hopefully it will get the milk flowing and not dry it up.

Thanks everyone for your help. Please keep the suggestions coming.

 

[Sagebrush]

Another plant you should be able to give your doe for milk production is Dandelion greens and Shepherds Purse. If I remember properly (Someone save me if I am wrong!) you want to giver her the leaves of these plants. I do believe you can get the dandelion greens from some grocery stores, cannot think of one off the top of my head besides Whole Foods.

 

[jimmywalt]

As of 7:45PM EST Sunday............

The 3 look really good now. My wife looked at them and said that they all look pretty much normal. Wiggling around when she put her hand in the next box.

HURRAY. I hope they keep going like this.

 

[Zass]

Another plant you should be able to give your doe for milk production is Dandelion greens and Shepherds Purse. If I remember properly (Someone save me if I am wrong!) you want to giver her the leaves of these plants. I do believe you can get the dandelion greens from some grocery stores, cannot think of one off the top of my head besides Whole Foods.

On the east coast Wegman's stores occasionally have dandelions. <br /><br /> -- Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:52 pm -- <br /><br />

As of 7:45PM EST Sunday............

The 3 look really good now. My wife looked at them and said that they all look pretty much normal. Wiggling around when she put her hand in the next box.

HURRAY. I hope they keep going like this.

Good luck little guys!
:clover: