unfed kits on day 5 questions

[Rainey]

Fayette kindled 8, her first litter, Sunday evening, had them on a hay pad she'd made on the wire and pulled fur. We found them promptly, moved them into the box and they've stayed in. Checked them each morning Monday through Thursday and all looked fed, growing. Today (Friday) checked again and none looked fed, 2 were dead.
Yesterday was hot for here this time of year, over 80 and it has stayed warm the last couple nights and Fayette was off her feed yesterday a bit. Cooler today and hoping that helps. We've just finished feeding wheat fodder last week and switched to fresh forage. She's also been getting dried stinging nettle which she ate up quickly until yesterday. And given oats (which she ate) and BOSS (which she left). Ate all her willow, just leafing out, yesterday and some dandelion and new grass. She hasn't been eating any hay since she kindled and we've been giving her as much as she'll take of the other stuff. Any suggestions for feed change?
Casco has a litter of 8 that will be 3 weeks old Monday, removed their nest box this week. Would it work to put the nestbox with the younger kits in with her for a feeding? Would she feed them? or harm them?
Any other advice welcome. We had the one doe a couple years ago that just didnt' feed her first litter at all, but had thought all was well when they seemed fed the first few days.

 

[MaggieJ]

The first thing I would do is to pull out the doe and give her a thorough examination. It's possible that she has mastitis or some other lactation problem. I believe mastitis is contagious, so if that seems to be what is wrong I would not put the kits with another doe.

Don't handle your other rabbits after examining the doe until you wash well and change your clothing. It is always best to err on the side of caution.

Is the doe showing any signs of gut stasis, bloating or anything that would signal digestive problems? Are her poops normal, both in consistency and amount? I suppose the doe could be reacting to changes in feed, but really you are offering a very good mix and your rabbits are accustomed to seasonal changes. I can't recall any seasonal issues in my herd.

As to whether a foster doe would feed the kits, it would depend a lot of the doe's temperament and hormones. If you do try putting the kits in with her, I'd be ready to intervene.

You could also try hand-feeding them. There's lots of information in 2CrazyFools' recent thread, and she has had stunning success feeding them from Day One.

 

[Rainey]

Thanks, Maggie. Checked and don't think she has mastitis (have seen it in a goat doe but not a rabbit) She isn't bloated but isn't showing usual interest in her food this morning. Cleaned the pan under her cage so can see if she is still pooping--the droppings in it are normal. Anything we should give for gut stasis? I have parsley and other herbs up enough to get her a handful if I knew what might help.
We tried hand feeding with our first unfed litter without success and the timing is bad with too much going on. Will try to check the thread you recommended and decide if we want to try it again.

 

[MaggieJ]

You're not that far from us as the crow flies, Rainey, but I don't know what's up in the greens department down your way. Dandelion greens would be excellent--some people feed them wet for added effect. Our willows are beginning to green up, so I imagine yours are too. You could try those too. Parsley should be good as well. If you can raid your fridge, lettuce tends to be laxative . . . just don't overdo it. It's a pity she's not eating her hay . . . That would be very helpful. You could try taking a teaspoon of blackstrap molasses in an ounce of boiling water and drizzling it over the hay. Blackstrap is full of nutrients and most rabbits like it.

Edited to add: Here's Crazy's thread on hand-feeding. You won't need to read the whole thing.
hand-feeding-newborn-kits-t31485.html

 

[Rainey]

Thanks for replying again, Maggie. (This has not been our best week on various fronts) We always keep hay in their feeders but they mostly eat it if they didn't fill up on the other offerings. When a doe kindles we try to make sure she gets the best of whatever is going (now that would be dandelion and the dried nettle) but maybe should cut back on that so she eats hay. Realized I'm not very clear on what natural feeds besides hY provide the long fiber they need. Oh, and she also got dried raspberry cane with leaves a couple days before kindling until the day after she kindled.

 

[MaggieJ]

In theory, your doe should eat what she needs, but it does sound like there is something going on with her. I don't think I would cut back the dandelions and nettles, since she needs them to produce milk for the kits. How do her poops look, now that you've cleared her tray?

I wish Dood would chime in on this thread. She is far more knowledgeable than I am. Maybe you should send her a quick PM. Advice from a knowledgeable member from the same approximate climate is very helpful.

 

[Rainey]

The doe is eating again. The rest of the kits died. Now have to decide whether to rebreed her and hope it goes better next time. Too tired this afternoon to make that decision. (Our farm is a non-profit charitable corporation and today was our annual meeting with the Directors. That went well--just takes time and energy. Will be posting more rabbit questions next week. Thanks for being there, Maggie.

 

[2CrazyFools]

I'm so sorry Rainey. I'm glad she is eating again but I feel for your loss of the kits.

 

[ladysown]

during the first two weeks post kindle you need to be mindful of your does... their immune systems are lower. I think sometimes their hormones can throw their guts out of whack.
if they go off feed, or stop eating what they normally get, it's something you really need to be alert too.
It's not a time to switch their diets.

It's horrid that you lost the babies. But I'm glad you saved the doe.

 

[Rainey]

during the first two weeks post kindle you need to be mindful of your does... their immune systems are lower. I think sometimes their hormones can throw their guts out of whack.
if they go off feed, or stop eating what they normally get, it's something you really need to be alert too.
It's not a time to switch their diets.

It's horrid that you lost the babies. But I'm glad you saved the doe.

That makes sense to me--that the hormone shift could affect the gut. We knew we needed to pay special attention for the first week or so, but I have a question about not changing their diet. We've always added some things for a doe just before and then after kindling. As I said earlier they get raspberry (not fruit, cane and leaves) before and then dried nettle and fresh parsley and BOSS after .Are you saying not to make such additions around kindling? Their diets are always quite varied since we don't feed pellets and they've just started getting fresh forage the past couple weeks as things start to grow here. The day the trouble started the high had jumped up into the 80's and now has dropped back down to the 50's. We thought the really warm day put her off her feed and that perhaps that, along with this being her first kindle, might have been enough to throw her off.

 

[ladysown]

if your rabbits always get a varied diet and are used to such changes.. by all means make those changes.

BUT there are many folks who feed their rabbits pellets and hay only and then say.. OH my rabbit kindled let's give it banana peel, oatmeal, BOSS or some other additional feed. Generally not well advised to do so.

The day the trouble started the high had jumped up into the 80's and now has dropped back down to the 50's. We thought the really warm day put her off her feed and that perhaps that, along with this being her first kindle, might have been enough to throw her off.

This kind of temperature shift was enough to put an experienced doe off her feed for me this winter... I fostered out her kits pronto and then fought to save the doe. She's just gone off to a pet home as I don't want to fight with that type of thing again with her.

 

[Rainey]

The doe is back to normal gut function--only stopped for those crucial two days in the first week after kindling. So we're going to try breeding her again this week and hope she is more successful the second time. Would probably just skip her but since one of our proven does hasn't produced a litter in two attempts this spring that one is out of the line-up. So far have just one litter, 3 weeks old, and another first timer who gets her nest box Friday and is due monday.
The first year we bred the 2 does we started with at the same time, but didn't need any fostering. Since then have tried to stagger litters so they are a week or 2 apart so we don't have so many to send to freezer camp at once. And I don't quite get how the fostering works--isn't it hard on the doe that has a litter of her own to take on another whole litter? Does it really slow down the growth for all the kits? Clearly lots of stuff to still figure out--will be starting a new thread full of questions soon

 

[MaggieJ]

And I don't quite get how the fostering works--isn't it hard on the doe that has a litter of her own to take on another whole litter? Does it really slow down the growth for all the kits? Clearly lots of stuff to still figure out--will be starting a new thread full of questions soon

Fostering can be hard on a doe and she may need a rest before breeding her again. To a certain extent, however, her body adjusts the milk supply to the need of the kits and she compensates by eating more. Two large litters would be hard on a single doe, but frequently with fostering there are only a few kits to be fostered, or perhaps a full litter to be divided between two foster moms. In a small rabbitry that isn't always possible.

Early weaning, perhaps with a goat's milk and oatmeal supplement for the kits in addition to their usual solids, might help reduce the strain on the doe and help the kits to maintain the expected growth. But even if the kits take a bit longer to reach butchering size, I think most people would find having them survive makes it well worthwhile.

I'll take a look at your new thread tomorrow. It's been a tiring day and I think I'm going to go offline now.
:gnight: