Unexpected Surprise!

[Dimplz]

So, long story short. A friend bred her REW New Zealand doe, to a broken LionHead buck.

There were two kits born. A REW and him. I was told this color is Chocolate ?Siamese Sable?

Does that seem correct about his coloring?

If so, genetically speaking, what does that tell us about the REWs genotype under that white sheet?

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

Definitely Siamese Sable

 

[Alaska Satin]

So, long story short. A friend bred her REW New Zealand doe, to a broken LionHead buck.

There were two kits born. A REW and him. I was told this color is Chocolate ?Siamese Sable?

Does that seem correct about his coloring?

If so, genetically speaking, what does that tell us about the REWs genotype under that white sheet?

I'd agree with @RabbitsOfTheCreek in calling it a siamese sable. I don't see any indication that it is chocolate - sable is a sepia brown.

REW is <_ _ _ _ cc _ _ _ _>
Siamese sable is <aa B_ cchl_ D_ E_>

What this tells you is that the lionhead is sable carrying REW <cchl c>, since there was a REW kit, and you already know the REW is <cc> .

Unfortunately, the allele for sable is on the same gene as REW, so that limits what the siamese sable offspring can tell you about the REW doe. All I can say is that you know the REW carries one or two copies of the allele for self, because siamese sable is a self so gets one copy of <a> from each parent. So the REW is either agouti carrying self<Aa>, otter carrying self <ata> or she's a self <aa>

At the other loci, siamese sable has dominant alleles, so unless you know what color the buck is, it's hard to make any other predictions, other than the REW is not a charlie <EnEn>. (If she was, the non-REW kits would all be broken or charlies).

 

[Dimplz]

I'd agree with @RabbitsOfTheCreek in calling it a siamese sable. I don't see any indication that it is chocolate - sable is a sepia brown.

REW is <_ _ _ _ cc _ _ _ _>
Siamese sable is <aa B_ cchl_ D_ E_>

What this tells you is that the lionhead is sable carrying REW <cchl c>, since there was a REW kit, and you already know the REW is <cc> .

Unfortunately, the allele for sable is on the same gene as REW, so that limits what the siamese sable offspring can tell you about the REW doe. All I can say is that you know the REW carries one or two copies of the allele for self, because siamese sable is a self so gets one copy of <a> from each parent. So the REW is either agouti carrying self<Aa>, otter carrying self <ata> or she's a self <aa>

At the other loci, siamese sable has dominant alleles, so unless you know what color the buck is, it's hard to make any other predictions, other than the REW is not a charlie <EnEn>. (If she was, the kits would all be broken or charlies).

Thank you for this. So sephia brown is not brown? I thought brown was called chocolate in rabbit terms. I am still learning the lingo.

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

Thank you for this. So sephia brown is not brown? I thought brown was called chocolate in rabbit terms. I am still learning the lingo.

There's multiple kinds of brown, solid dark/rich brown is Chocolate, you've seen Siamese Sable (Which btw has about three shades), and Chestnut is what wild rabbits look like
There's also other colors that are mostly brown like Sable Marten (Martin? Martan?)

 

[Alaska Satin]

Thank you for this. So sephia brown is not brown? I thought brown was called chocolate in rabbit terms. I am still learning the lingo.

Like @RabbitsOfTheCreek said, there are all kinds of browns in the rabbit world, and oddly enough, none of them are called brown!

Chocolate looks like this:

Actually that's a chocolate otter, but you see the chocolate coloring.

Castor looks like this:

Copper looks like this:


Chestnut looks like this:

(Castor, copper and chestnut are all genetically the same color, they just look different in the different coat types of rex, satin and normal.)

Tort looks like this:

Fawn looks like this:

Sable looks like this (image from American Sable):
:
Sable Point looks like this:
or this:

And you have your own beautiful Siamese Sable (which is genetically the same as sable).

 

[judymac]

there are all kinds of browns in the rabbit world, and oddly enough, none of them are called brown!

So well said. Chocolate as a stand-alone color refers only to the non-agouti (solid self-colored rabbit) with the brown recessive (bb) instead of the dominant black BB or Bb. Rabbits with other color patterns that still have the brown recessive bb may have the word 'chocolate' in their name. A castor/chestnut agouti with brown instead of black is a chocolate agouti (also called cinnamon). A tortoiseshell with brown instead of black is a chocolate tort. A pointed white with chocolate instead of black is a chocolate Himalayan (or Himi for short)/ chocolate Californian/ chocolate pointed white depending on breed. You get the idea.

These are all colors on the dominant full-color 'C' gene, either CC or C with something more recessive. The C gene actually has five color choices, called 'alleles'. Full color C- is the most dominant. All the colors more recessive to that have more and more of the pigment removed from the fiber. Next down in dominance is chinchilla, coded c(chd) for chinchilla-dark. Chinchilla removes the fawn band from the fiber, so a chestnut agouti, which normally has a fawn middle band and some fawn mixed into the outer color to make it look brown, now is a gray chinchilla with pearly white in the middle band. The really silly one is when you mix chinchilla with a fawn agouti. Fawn non-extension ee removes all the dark color from the hairshaft, only leaving the yellow shades. Chinchilla removes the yellow. So you end up with a pearly white rabbit with dark eyes, called ermine.

Your sable is the next down in dominance. Sable not only removes all the yellow/fawn/red colors, it also leaches out some of the dark color. So deep black becomes a dark sepia brown, like an old photograph. Genetically, it's still black, still has the BB or Bb black alleles, but the sable allele, coded c(chl) for chinchilla-light, has removed enough of the dark color to render it sepia instead of black.

There are two more alleles more recessive than sable, one is the Himalayan/Californian/pointed white gene, coded c(h) for Himalayan. Here, all of the color is removed from the main coat and eyes, with color only remaining on the points (nose, ears, tail, feet), the most extreme (and therefore coldest) points of the body. Himi is a cold-sensitive pattern, only making color where the body is cooler. The most recessive color is albino red-eyed-white (also called ruby-eyed-white, or REW for short.) This rabbit can genetically be any pattern at all, but the recessive cc allele turns off the pigment producing cells, so it can't wear the colors it is genetically programmed for. Which is why it is sometimes called a rabbit wearing a white sheet, you can't see what genetic colors are hiding beneath the white exterior.

So, this is how you can end up with brown shades that aren't chocolate.

 

[Dimplz]

Like @RabbitsOfTheCreek said, there are all kinds of browns in the rabbit world, and oddly enough, none of them are called brown!

Chocolate looks like this:
View attachment 34106
Actually that's a chocolate otter, but you see the chocolate coloring.

Castor looks like this:
View attachment 34108
Copper looks like this:
View attachment 34113

Chestnut looks like this:
View attachment 34112
(Castor, copper and chestnut are all genetically the same color, they just look different in the different coat types of rex, satin and normal.)

Tort looks like this:
View attachment 34110
Fawn looks like this:
View attachment 34116
Sable looks like this (image from American Sable):
: View attachment 34117
Sable Point looks like this:
View attachment 34111 or this: View attachment 34115

And you have your own beautiful Siamese Sable (which is genetically the same as sab

So well said. Chocolate as a stand-alone color refers only to the non-agouti (solid self-colored rabbit) with the brown recessive (bb) instead of the dominant black BB or Bb. Rabbits with other color patterns that still have the brown recessive bb may have the word 'chocolate' in their name. A castor/chestnut agouti with brown instead of black is a chocolate agouti (also called cinnamon). A tortoiseshell with brown instead of black is a chocolate tort. A pointed white with chocolate instead of black is a chocolate Himalayan (or Himi for short)/ chocolate Californian/ chocolate pointed white depending on breed. You get the idea.

These are all colors on the dominant full-color 'C' gene, either CC or C with something more recessive. The C gene actually has five color choices, called 'alleles'. Full color C- is the most dominant. All the colors more recessive to that have more and more of the pigment removed from the fiber. Next down in dominance is chinchilla, coded c(chd) for chinchilla-dark. Chinchilla removes the fawn band from the fiber, so a chestnut agouti, which normally has a fawn middle band and some fawn mixed into the outer color to make it look brown, now is a gray chinchilla with pearly white in the middle band. The really silly one is when you mix chinchilla with a fawn agouti. Fawn non-extension ee removes all the dark color from the hairshaft, only leaving the yellow shades. Chinchilla removes the yellow. So you end up with a pearly white rabbit with dark eyes, called ermine.

Your sable is the next down in dominance. Sable not only removes all the yellow/fawn/red colors, it also leaches out some of the dark color. So deep black becomes a dark sepia brown, like an old photograph. Genetically, it's still black, still has the BB or Bb black alleles, but the sable allele, coded c(chl) for chinchilla-light, has removed enough of the dark color to render it sepia instead of black.

There are two more alleles more recessive than sable, one is the Himalayan/Californian/pointed white gene, coded c(h) for Himalayan. Here, all of the color is removed from the main coat and eyes, with color only remaining on the points (nose, ears, tail, feet), the most extreme (and therefore coldest) points of the body. Himi is a cold-sensitive pattern, only making color where the body is cooler. The most recessive color is albino red-eyed-white (also called ruby-eyed-white, or REW for short.) This rabbit can genetically be any pattern at all, but the recessive cc allele turns off the pigment producing cells, so it can't wear the colors it is genetically programmed for. Which is why it is sometimes called a rabbit wearing a white sheet, you can't see what genetic colors are hiding beneath the white exterior.

So, this is how you can end up with brown shades that aren't chocolate.

So if I were to breed my Sepia Brown Siamese Sable to a Black Tortiose . . . What do you think the kits would be genetically?

 

[Dimplz]

Like @RabbitsOfTheCreek said, there are all kinds of browns in the rabbit world, and oddly enough, none of them are called brown!

Chocolate looks like this:
View attachment 34106
Actually that's a chocolate otter, but you see the chocolate coloring.

Castor looks like this:
View attachment 34108
Copper looks like this:
View attachment 34113

Chestnut looks like this:
View attachment 34112
(Castor, copper and chestnut are all genetically the same color, they just look different in the different coat types of rex, satin and normal.)

Tort looks like this:
View attachment 34110
Fawn looks like this:
View attachment 34116
Sable looks like this (image from American Sable):
: View attachment 34117
Sable Point looks like this:
View attachment 34111 or this: View attachment 34115

And you have your own beautiful Siamese Sable (which is genetically the same as sable).

Thank you for all those visual examples. I really appreciate that. Those are gorgeous rabbits too.

 

[Alaska Satin]

So if I were to breed my Sepia Brown Siamese Sable to a Black Tortiose . . . What do you think the kits would be genetically?

Your siamese sable is: <aa B_ cchl c D_ E_> The underlines are unknowns; because siamese sable is a self you know she's <aa> and because her dam was a REW you know she carries <c> in the second place after her sable <cchl>

The black tort buck is: <aa B_C_D_ ee> Without knowing his parentage it's impossible to say what are in the other spots.

The kits will get one allele from each parent at each locus. The only thing you know for sure is that all the kits will be <aa>, since that's all either parent has to give. And they will get at least one copy of <e>, since that's all the tort sire has to give.

So: all of their kits will be self. At least some or most will probably be blacks; there is some possibility for blues, chocolates or lilacs depending on what the two rabbits have at the second place at the B and D spots.

If the siamese sable doe carries an <e> you could get torts; again there is some possibility for blue torts, chocolate torts or lilac torts depending on what the two rabbits have at the second place at the B and D spots.

Depending on what the tort carries in the second C spot, you might also get siamese, or self chin (looks like a self black but maybe with blue-gray eyes), or REW; or blue, chocolate or lilac siamese, or self blue, chocolate or lilac chins (which look like self blues, chocolates or lilacs).

There's no suggestion in the doe that she caries harlequin <ej> but it's a slight possibility. If so, you might get harlequinzed versions of some of the above colors.

As a side note, "sepia brown" is the somewhat artisitic description of dark blackish brown produced by the gene for black in combination with the gene for sable. You don't usually say sepia brown in front of the rabbit color term Siamese Sable... though you are certainly welcome to, since it helps picture the color for people trying to figure out the quirky names for rabbit colors!

 

[Dimplz]

Your siamese sable is: <aa B_ cchl c D_ E_> The underlines are unknowns; because siamese sable is a self you know she's <aa> and because her dam was a REW you know she carries <c> in the second place after her sable <cchl>

The black tort buck is: <aa B_C_D_ ee> Without knowing his parentage it's impossible to say what are in the other spots.

The kits will get one allele from each parent at each locus. The only thing you know for sure is that all the kits will be <aa>, since that's all either parent has to give. And they will get at least one copy of <e>, since that's all the tort sire has to give.

So: all of their kits will be self. At least some or most will probably be blacks; there is some possibility for blues, chocolates or lilacs depending on what the two rabbits have at the second place at the B and D spots.

If the siamese sable doe carries an <e> you could get torts; again there is some possibility for blue torts, chocolate torts or lilac torts depending on what the two rabbits have at the second place at the B and D spots.

Depending on what the tort carries in the second C spot, you might also get siamese, or self chin (looks like a self black but maybe with blue-gray eyes), or REW; or blue, chocolate or lilac siamese, or self blue, chocolate or lilac chins (which look like self blues, chocolates or lilacs).

There's no suggestion in the doe that she caries harlequin <ej> but it's a slight possibility. If so, you might get harlequinzed versions of some of the above colors.

As a side note, "sepia brown" is the somewhat artisitic description of dark blackish brown produced by the gene for black in combination with the gene for sable. You don't usually say sepia brown in front of the rabbit color term Siamese Sable... though you are certainly welcome to, since it helps picture the color for people trying to figure out the quirky names for rabbit colors!

Thank you very much for this explaination. This is the doe we call Cinnabunny. She is the one I plan to breed to the Siamese Sable buck pictured in my original post.

Her fur flies back in to place, like snaps back as if it were never combed the wrong way. His fur is thick, and stands up when brushed towards the head, only going back in to place if brushed down from head to tail. Never encountered fur so thick in any of my rabbits.

I was told she is a Black Tort. Is this what you see as well?

 

[Alaska Satin]

Thank you very much for this explaination. This is the doe we call Cinnabunny. She is the one I plan to breed to the Siamese Sable buck pictured in my original post.

Her fur flies back in to place, like snaps back as if it were never combed the wrong way. His fur is thick, and stands up when brushed towards the head, only going back in to place if brushed down from head to tail. Never encountered fur so thick in any of my rabbits.

I was told she is a Black Tort. Is this what you see as well?

Oops, for some reason I got the impression the siamese sable was a doe!

Yes, Cinnabunny looks like a black tort to me. A black tort (commonly shortened to just tort since it's the "original" color; modifiers blue, chocolate and lilac are added to tort to distinguish them) is a self black rabbit with two non-extension genes that restrict most of the black expression, allowing the underlying orange to show through. That's why the rabbit's belly is dark - it's a self rabbit. The gray-black shading occurs on the nose, ears, feet and flanks because the non-extension effect is less on shorter hair.

Your name "Cinnabunny" is pretty appropriate. There is actually a breed called the "Cinnamon" which is...of course... a tort. Image from ARBA Cinnamon


Torts can be pretty variable in their coloring, though, some being bright orange with very little shading:


medium orange-brown and more evenly shaded:


some are sooty nearly all over:


and some are more pale tan than orange, like your doe. The difference may be that all the mini rex above carry the wideband gene and rufus modifiers that makes the orange a deep red, instead of paler tan-brown like your doe and the sable point doe pictured in the earlier post. Also, all the pigment in a rex coat is compressed into much shorter hairs, so the color looks more intense and vivid than it would on normal fur.

The difference in fur in your two rabbits could stem from a number of things. Different breeds have different standards for fur type, but of course that does not mean that each individual rabbit has fur that is up-to-the-standard. And the situation is intensified when you start dealing with crossbreeds, when you sometimes see fur types (and other features) pop out that don't seem to match either parent. Flyback fur like you see on your tort doe is typical of commercial breeds, and stand-up fur, as you probably know, is typical of silver fox. But that isn't necessarily diagnostic because of the crossbreed issue mentioned above.

The other thing is that fur texture and density can change with the condition of the rabbit. Perhaps your siamese sable buck has always had and will always have that stand-up fur, but rabbits can go through a "double-coat" phase, when a new coat is coming in but the old coat has yet to molt out. If your buck is young, he may be double-coated while his prime coat comes in but his junior coat hangs on. Some of my Satins have the most unbelievable density while they are double-coated for a couple of weeks in late summer while they molt. Others look like they're trying to channel their inner angora when their coat blows, almost literally.

Those are some very nice-looking rabbits you have, by the way...two of my favorite colors.

 

[Dimplz]

Oops, for some reason I got the impression the siamese sable was a doe!

Yes, Cinnabunny looks like a black tort to me. A black tort (commonly shortened to just tort since it's the "original" color; modifiers blue, chocolate and lilac are added to tort to distinguish them) is a self black rabbit with two non-extension genes that restrict most of the black expression, allowing the underlying orange to show through. That's why the rabbit's belly is dark - it's a self rabbit. The gray-black shading occurs on the nose, ears, feet and flanks because the non-extension effect is less on shorter hair.

Your name "Cinnabunny" is pretty appropriate. There is actually a breed called the "Cinnamon" which is...of course... a tort. Image from ARBA Cinnamon
View attachment 34152

Torts can be pretty variable in their coloring, though, some being bright orange with very little shading:
View attachment 34150

medium orange-brown and more evenly shaded:
View attachment 34149

some are sooty nearly all over:
View attachment 34151

and some are more pale tan than orange, like your doe. The difference may be that all the mini rex above carry the wideband gene and rufus modifiers that makes the orange a deep red, instead of paler tan-brown like your doe and the sable point doe pictured in the earlier post. Also, all the pigment in a rex coat is compressed into much shorter hairs, so the color looks more intense and vivid than it would on normal fur.

The difference in fur in your two rabbits could stem from a number of things. Different breeds have different standards for fur type, but of course that does not mean that each individual rabbit has fur that is up-to-the-standard. And the situation is intensified when you start dealing with crossbreeds, when you sometimes see fur types (and other features) pop out that don't seem to match either parent. Flyback fur like you see on your tort doe is typical of commercial breeds, and stand-up fur, as you probably know, is typical of silver fox. But that isn't necessarily diagnostic because of the crossbreed issue mentioned above.

The other thing is that fur texture and density can change with the condition of the rabbit. Perhaps your siamese sable buck has always had and will always have that stand-up fur, but rabbits can go through a "double-coat" phase, when a new coat is coming in but the old coat has yet to molt out. If your buck is young, he may be double-coated while his prime coat comes in but his junior coat hangs on. Some of my Satins have the most unbelievable density while they are double-coated for a couple of weeks in late summer while they molt. Others look like they're trying to channel their inner angora when their coat blows, almost literally.

Those are some very nice-looking rabbits you have, by the way...two of my favorite colors.

Thank you for your insight. I came across my tort when a lady was getting out of rabbits and we were there to look at her adults. We took 2 of the adults, and my daughter fell in love with one of the grow outs. So we bought her. She has changed just as much as our little siamese sable. He was an ashy gray color at birth, and has just kept changing. I think his fur will change more, so I am excited to see him as an adult.

I love all the colors I have in my little rabbitry. I got a blue self chin in my last litter of American Chinchillas. Here she has photo bombed her sister!

The last picture is their brother. He resembles his dad. Such gorgeous rabbits. Want one?