Trying to improve some New Zealand Reds

[LopLover]

So we are getting a trio of NZ reds from a friend but he says that they have poor rate of gain and color. I know that of I cross them to our whites I will get steels and if I cross to our Cals we will get chestnuts. A friend claims that the steels when breed back to the reds produce a cleaner color but are lighter while the chestnuts crossed back on the reds will be darker but will produce a muddy red. This being said, I had the thought of taking a steel produced between a red and a white and a chestnut out of a red and a Cal with the goal of getting the cleaner red from the steel and the darker color from the chestnut. I realize it could also go the other way and that only 1/4 of the litter will be reds but what are your thoughts on this?

 

[Dood]

If you are trying to improve the NZRed BREED then don't cross to Californians

If just for your own use then cross to whichever breed is more productive in your Rabbitry.

I know that of I cross them to our whites I will get steels and if I cross to our Cals we will get chestnuts.

How do you know this? Have you done test breedings or out crossings to determine what colour genes your NZW and Cali's have?

To improve the colour of NZReds you need more Rufus factors and wideband which are impossible to detect in rabbits that aren't visual agouti's so you won't know until you get kits

 

[alforddm]

If you are trying to improve the NZRed BREED then don't cross to Californians

Why is that a bad idea? Is it that the types are different?

 

[Dood]

Yes

 

[Zass]

If they have poor color it means they are likely out of another person's NZ color crossed breeding.
Slow growth at that point could be blamed on poor selective breeding, parasites, feed, or other factors, since they are probably already "outcrossed" to a different color of NZ.
They may already lack the wideband needed to give the appearance of "self red"

Everything Dood said is right.
And, I'd like to add, as a general rule, crossing reds tends to really harm the color. You can't harm it two ways, cross the kits together and expect to see better color.

In this case, because non-red rabbits are highly unlikely to carry all the right genes to make a good red, I think you would be most likely to end up with the worst of both worlds.

If I wanted to improve the color on some, I would get the best NZR buck I could find (one with correct color), breed to him, and then breed his offspring back to him. That would give me a chance at kits with the correct wideband and rufus.

 

[LopLover]

Thank you all for your input. NZ Reds are quite rare around here and many people have been crossing them to Cals to improve their exceedingly poor type. I figured it was worth a shot to try this idea and worse case scenario it is more meat for the freezer. Me and many other fellow breeders agree that the reds have been ruined and I thought this could be an opportunity to give them a kickstart that they most desperately need. Also, after three generations a rabbit is considered a purebred if all the rabbits on the pedigree are recorded as one breed. There is honestly no such thing is a purebred rabbit, in my opinion. Something was crossed to get something else to make a breed. Like I said, just a thought I had.

Also, the Californians can only be genetically black. Agouti would give them agouti markings and any other color would change the point color on them.

We have test bred the whites and produces steels.

 

[Dood]

A steel Californian can have self black markings - I use to own one

He was purebred with a 3 generation pedigree and never fathered self on any of my does who carry the gene so likely was homozygous for agouti

If your Cali are self (aa __ chch__ __ WW) then crossing to the Reds (A_ __C_ __ee ww) will produce self carrying chestnuts (Aa __ Cch __ Ee Ww) and you will get torts in the second generation crosses (aa __ _ch __ ee __) as well as fawns (A_ __ __ ee W_) and reds