Timothy or Alfalfa?

[drowe005]

I've heard mixed opinions on this topic and was just wondering what some of you thought/do. What's a better hay to feed a pregnant doe? Alfalfa or Timothy? I know Alfalfa shouldn't be fed to adult rabbits but have heard that its OK and beneficial to feed this when the doe is pregnant. Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated, and reasons to back it up even better. Thanks!

 

[akane]

I've found most raising for meat feed alfalfa to everything and most raising for show or who only feed hay occasionally feed grass hay. Some raising for show do use alfalfa since it gives a better coat quality but since most show people don't free feed hay that usually doesn't matter. It's mainly the natural feeding crowd who feed all the hay they'll eat and then the protein from alfalfa is needed because 12% grain mixes are used.

I don't know anyone who buys 2 types of hay except us. We buy the odd grass bale for the mini rex does who tend to get fat if not kept bred constantly. Every time I give them a break no matter how much I limit their grain or pellet intake they turn in to balloons so we have grass hay to use when we need to get a couple pounds off them. Otherwise everything including bucks get clover hay here which is a legume hay like alfalfa but can reach even higher protein levels.

 

[SatinsRule]

I've never been particularly fond of feeding alfalfa on a long-term basis, especially when I consider that a significant part of their pelleted ration is alfalfa. It's good hay, but it's also rather hard to keep from molding long before I can use it. That's a product of being in a humid environment, I suppose. It just doesn't keep well here.

That said, if I could buy timothy hay locally, I'd get a bale of it and have at it. I currently feed it from a bag, and the rabbits go absolutely nutz on it. The broken doe which just littered eats as much timothy hay every day as she eats in pellets, and that's saying something for that gal. As it is, I will have to commit to either lespedeza or bermuda, or just be content to continuallydole out $10 for a big bag of timothy at the local Wally World.

 

[drowe005]

Do you have any Southern States near you Satinsrule? I was buying the same timothy and alfalfa from walmart but found out Southern States sells 50 pound bales of alfalfa for 12.99 and timothy for 14.99. Its crazy, $10 at walmart for 3 lbs., or 3 more dollars at S.S. for 47 more pounds. If you dont have a S.S. by you, I'd check with other local feed stores

Thanks for the 2 of yours opinions so far

 

[trinityoaks]

I know Alfalfa shouldn't be fed to adult rabbits

Who said so? I feed alfalfa to my adult rabbits all the time. It's the main source of protein in their diet. I've never been able to find timothy hay in any significant quantity (only $uper expen$ive itty bitty bags), and my buns don't seem to care for orchard or bermuda hay (except to build nests with).

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I only feed mine alfalfa once or twice a week now and they get bermuda grass otherwise, since the pellets are alfalfa based. As they wean off the pellets with more fresh foods this season I will likely feed it to them with greater regularity.

 

[lostcreekrabbits]

My bunrabs get a handful of alfalfa twice a day in addition to pellets in the morning

 

[avdpas77]

I've heard mixed opinions on this topic and was just wondering what some of you thought/do. What's a better hay to feed a pregnant doe? Alfalfa or Timothy? I know Alfalfa shouldn't be fed to adult rabbits but have heard that its OK and beneficial to feed this when the doe is pregnant. Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated, and reasons to back it up even better. Thanks!

We need to know a bit more information to give you a good answer. Are you currently feeding pellets? If so, then the rabbits are probably getting as much alfalfa as the want, so the timothy might be better. If you are not feeding pellets, then alfalfa is usually one of the most important ingredients of the diet, because there are few other (reasonable or economical) ways for them to get enough protein. A rabbit could subsist longer on pure alfalfa, than any other single one food.

I feed my rabbits pellets, and since they already get a lot of alfalfa, and decent alfalfa hay around here is quite expensive, it is not worth the money. Because of demand from horse people, timothy is even more expensive, not to mention that most of the "timothy" hay I see in a bale, around here, is lucky to be 10% timothy. What I find works best for me, is hay that is about half red clover. It is much less expensive, the clover has a lot of protein, and the grass helps hold the leaves in place so the rabbits don't waste much of it through the cage floor when eating. My rabbits really love it, and will eat it before they will timothy or Alfalfa.

 

[akane]

Even if feeding pellets if you feed timothy it's going to bring the protein way down to below 16% possibly even with an 18% pellet. If you are showing or raising for meat that is bad even if your stock that isn't currently breeding so we can't just say alfalfa pellet = grass hay, other feed = alfalfa hay. The use of the rabbits comes in to play too.

It's good hay, but it's also rather hard to keep from molding long before I can use it. That's a product of being in a humid environment, I suppose. It just doesn't keep well her

More likely you are buying bad hay or storing it poorly. Your relative humidity on the map is 68-80 while ours is 72-78 so little difference and hay keeps for a year easy. Odds are it's not properly dry when put up or has too little air flow. For small amounts of hay giant cardboard boxes are wonderful and for stacks layers of cardboard can help but properly cured hay in a building with some air flow it's unnecessary even if you're in florida.

 

[lostcreekrabbits]

I like to keep mine up on pallets, keeps any ground moisture off of it and seems to cut down on "mice rodeos" when you lift up a bale that's been sitting a while

 

[akane]

We always just sacrificed a row on bottom since we were bringing in 160 squares a year minimum. Now we have some heavy duty plastic pallets since we only store about 40 for horses and a dozen or so at a time for rabbits without wanting any to go to waste.

 

[avdpas77]

Even if feeding pellets if you feed timothy it's going to bring the protein way down to below 16% possibly even with an 18% pellet. If you are showing or raising for meat that is bad even if your stock that isn't currently breeding so we can't just say alfalfa pellet = grass hay, other feed = alfalfa hay. The use of the rabbits comes in to play too.

True, although people feeding pellets usually don't feed more than a small handful, so it doesn't make up that much of the total ration. I should have been more descriptive in my answer. What you say is one of the reasons I like red clover hay. The percent of total protein is certainly something one should take into account.

 

[SatinsRule]

Even if feeding pellets if you feed timothy it's going to bring the protein way down to below 16% possibly even with an 18% pellet. If you are showing or raising for meat that is bad even if your stock that isn't currently breeding so we can't just say alfalfa pellet = grass hay, other feed = alfalfa hay. The use of the rabbits comes in to play too.

It's good hay, but it's also rather hard to keep from molding long before I can use it. That's a product of being in a humid environment, I suppose. It just doesn't keep well her

More likely you are buying bad hay or storing it poorly. Your relative humidity on the map is 68-80 while ours is 72-78 so little difference and hay keeps for a year easy. Odds are it's not properly dry when put up or has too little air flow. For small amounts of hay giant cardboard boxes are wonderful and for stacks layers of cardboard can help but properly cured hay in a building with some air flow it's unnecessary even if you're in florida.

No, it's the humidity in the area that I live in. Any kind of farm building around here is made with steel siding, and as such, it sweats as the humidity and moisture from cycling rainfalls runs directly onto hay bales. Putting cardboard boxes on it may slow it somewhat, but it won't do so signficantly well enough to make that much of a difference.

As I've said before in a previous exchange we've had on a similar conversation, it was also a problem at a horse farm which I worked on. The farmer I worked for at the time simply gave up on trying to buy and store it, as it molded before it would get used up, and that was with a rather large number of quarter horses which were being fed the stuff every single day and despite that he had state of the art facilities for his operation. We are talking trying to store it in the same barn which he packs full of bermuda grass hay and feeds from with little to no problem year round.

I also know that it's traditionally hard for me to use a bale of any hay before it goes bad, but the problem is significantly more difficult with alfalfa around here, and even harder to get rid of after it does so. The moment a mold spore shows up in the hay, I'm forced to discard it, and just come around here and try to find a farmer or other landowner who is kosher with the idea of you dumping anything on their property. Throw it in a dumpster, and you wind up in jail over that stunt.


__________ Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:40 pm __________

Do you have any Southern States near you Satinsrule? I was buying the same timothy and alfalfa from walmart but found out Southern States sells 50 pound bales of alfalfa for 12.99 and timothy for 14.99. Its crazy, $10 at walmart for 3 lbs., or 3 more dollars at S.S. for 47 more pounds. If you dont have a S.S. by you, I'd check with other local feed stores

Thanks for the 2 of yours opinions so far

I'm left to assume that "Southern States" is the name of some sort of farm supply chain or co-op, and if that's the case, no we don't have them here. The only farm supply chains we have here are Tractor Supply, Caldwell's (Purina chain), and a regional outfit called Atwood's.

I have come incredibly close to getting a small bale of alfalfa hay at Atwood's on a number of occasions, but I keep coming back to what I keep trying to tell Akane. I simply will not use it fast enough before it starts to mold and will be faced with trying to get rid of it afterward. That's a major obstacle for me.

 

[akane]

I am not lecturing anyone I am pointing out facts. Relative humidity scientifically measured is barely higher in your state than mine and we have no problems through summer. I have talked to plenty of people from down south who are feeding 2 year old hay perfectly dry and green. It was quite common to come across people on the equine and guinea pig forums with lots of bales in various storage situations in humid southern states that were asking if hay over a year was too old to feed. Therefore by fact something must be going wrong somewhere to make your hay go bad and I would help figure that out based on my experience and equine nutrition classes that spent months just studying hay and hay storage as well as give more suggestions like I did with the cardboard but you do not seem interested in listening to someone else's information and suggestions. So ignore me if you like.

 

[SatinsRule]

And I am telling you that putting cardboard over and around the hay will work only so long before the boxes become saturated and the moisture begins to get into the hay. Once that happens, you have trapped moisture right next to the hay, and that will lead to mold as quickly as anything around here.

The thing is that I am listening to what you've said. I DON'T feel as though you're paying one bit of attention to me. I didn't just make an uneducated deduction regarding alfalfa hay. I've personally experienced the down sides of it first hand, and given the smaller size of my operation, I had to make a conscious decision that any benefit I might get from feeding it is far outweighed by the very real potential for losing rabbits to digestive tract issues after having fed molded hay to them. Been there, done that, don't need to repeat it to remind myself of how devastating the long-term effect of losing a breeder is.<br /><br />__________ Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:40 am __________<br /><br />Okay, Akane. Yesterday when I went to pick up some shavings for my stackers, there were smaller compressed bales of alfalfa and I decided to give your idea one more go. I'll warn you, though. If this one doesn't work, I'll pull your lungs out thru your nose!!! :annihilate:

 

[akane]

Are the edges molding or the middle? What surface is it on? What are the floors and walls of the building made of? Anything will mold if you put it in a concrete floored building (my concrete looks like you poured water on it some days), with metal walls, and set it near the ground.

 

[SatinsRule]

Usually it is on the surface, and let me explain to you how I arrive at that conclusion.

Down here, the warming and cooling of the outside and inside air causes condensation (sweat) to develop on the inside of barns. This is particularly true of metal buildings, and most building down here today are being made out of metal because of the ever-present rotting that happens to wood in this area, and concrete or brick structures can present a big problem with ventilation, not to mention being very costly to build.

That condensation drips from the building as the temperatures rise during the day, then once they dry, you'll normally have several quarter-sized molded spots begin to show where the majority of sweat has leaked onto the hay, as well as onto the ground or floor. This is an even bigger problem when it rains, which normally is quite severe during certain times of the year and the sweating is more steady. Moisture is a big problem down here. After the rain stops, the moisture begins to rise from the ground and the problem keeps reinventing itself.

If you try and cover it with cardboard, it will work for a very limited time, but only until the cardboard becomes so saturated that it begins to leak into the hay inside, then the problem of molding becomes severe as you have moisture on the inside of the box trapped next to the surface of the hay. Condensation and moisture also will get into the hay from the floor regardless of what type of flooring you put into the barn.

Right now, I am storing my hay in rubbermaid containers to try and prevent all this from happening as long as I can, but at some point, that begins to not work, particularly if there is any kind of moisture in the center of the bale. My rabbits are stored in a wooden shed-like structure with sheet metal rooftops.

In short, I am telling you that it's hard to win for losing, and I'd much rather pay more for hay at the local Wally World than I would have to replace rabbits on a constant basis.

 

[skysthelimit]

As it stands, I cannot get timothy or alfalfa hay here. Most of the local feed stores are out, don't know of a horse center that can spare it, don't live near nay farm communities. It was all I could to get the orchard grass, which they eat up. It took me three months to use one bale. Now that I have a few more nesting does, It's been two weeks and the bale is halfway gone. I'm trying to find some way to store it, because on a pallet is not mouse proof. it is now sitting in half of a plastic vari kennel, that is on top of two cinder blocks. Teh hay is roughage and fun. not really sure out the nutritional value.

 

[drowe005]

For storing what I do is, Is I have what Im guessing to about a 20 gallon rubber maid tote that is perfect size for a 50 pound bale of alfafa, and I store it in my house. I have another smaller bag that I put a few chunks of hay in and thats what I carry out to feed the rabbits, and then refill the bag as needed.<br /><br />__________ 19 Apr 2012 21:10 __________<br /><br />I dont store it with a top on it, I leave the top off

 

[skysthelimit]

For storing what I do is, Is I have what Im guessing to about a 20 gallon rubber maid tote that is perfect size for a 50 pound bale of alfafa, and I store it in my house. I have another smaller bag that I put a few chunks of hay in and thats what I carry out to feed the rabbits, and then refill the bag as needed.

__________ 19 Apr 2012 21:10 __________

I dont store it with a top on it, I leave the top off

Hay in the house will not go over well with my landlord (mother). The basement is moldy moist, so nothing I ever want to use again goes down there. Even the deep freezer is molding.