Thoughts on outside colony

[Starchild]

A few weeks ago I got 4 rabbits and 7 babies + two cages in my lap, and I thought ok I can do this.. now the babies are 7 weeks old and I can see that I'm running out of time..

I want to breed rabbits for meat, but I can't stand to see them in cages, so I want to make an outside colony of about 1000 sq ft, or as big as I can make it when I first start digging for the fence..
I have an old concrete building I want to make "bed rooms" inside, and make a hole in the wall to they can run "free" outside. Hopefully I'll be able to keep males and all together, especially if I only intruduce whole litters..?
If not I can split of one quart of both inside and outside to keep a male for breeding.

Is there any chance the rabbits can go together in such a big space?
If they only go inside to sleep (if they just don't dig a hole and sleep outside?), how many rabbits can I have in one "bed room" of a certain size? I know this might be a "how long is a rope" question, but some guidelines is all I need..
Will they breed like crazy, or will they breed more "reasonably" in "the wild"? Maybe its a little bit like us humans, that we always want what we can't have...
How soon are they ready to be buthered?

That was some of my questions.. perhaps I should wait before firing of all the others..

Any thoughts or input? =o)

 

[DumansArk]

**Will they breed like crazy, or will they breed more "reasonably" in "the wild"?

The buck rabbit, provided he is normal, healthy, and able, will breed the females when they will let him.
If the doe is normal, healthy, etc - she'll be bred. In theory, every female of breeding age that you have will constantly be bred and so yes, eventually, you are going to feel like they are 'breeding like rabbits'

****How soon are they ready to be buthered?

This depends on what breed you are raising. New Zealands are probably most notable for a meat rabbit as the kits butchering size at 12 weeks of age.

So if you raise dwarf rabbits, or small mix breed rabbits you can still raise them for meat; it may just take them a bit longer on feed OR you butcher several kits out at a time to put enough food on your table.

Good luck!

 

[JueLee]

I hate seeing them in cages, too.

I keep 3 does per 9' x 12' colony pen, or 36 sq ft each. To my eye, that looks like enough space to run around without getting crowded. At that spacing, your 1000' would house 30 does. I raise meat for myself and my two big dogs. 18 does provide abundantly for me.

Some people use smaller pens, some people use larger ones. It's very much a matter of preferences and resources. As long as the rabbits aren't so crowded they cause each other stress, they'll be fine in whatever size pen you build.

Rabbits that grew up in separate cages sometimes don't do well in colonies. Watch carefully for a few days when you put them in. It's normal for does to chase each other, and pull fur off each other at first. They are just settling the pecking order. Anything more aggressive than that, such as kicking or actual biting, means you should separate them again. Your baby rabbits should take to colony life much more easily.

If you don't mind constant breeding, and you don't need to keep track of whose kits are whose, then you can keep a buck in with the does. He will keep the does bred pretty much constantly. I keep my two bucks separate so I can control breeding.

If two bucks were raised together, there's a fairly good chance they will continue to get along once they mature. But it's much better to separate bucks from each other. If they don't get along, they will kill each other -- and they can quit getting along very suddenly, at any time. They should be separated no later than 12 weeks, preferably as soon as they are weaned.

Unless you put wire on the ground to prevent digging, your rabbits will dig burrows. If they dig, they will most likely ignore any nestboxes or sleeping areas you provide. Burrows are much more natural to them than anything above ground.

Whether they burrow or not, you should make the "bedroom" area big enough for at least 2 nest boxes per doe -- one for kits and one for lounging around in. (The lounging area doesn't have to have any actual nest boxes in it, just room enough for one per doe.) Given the choice, a doe will not sleep or eat near her nest. She'll only go back to the nest once or twice a day to feed the kits. I also find that the young kits will switch nest boxes at about three weeks of age. So, it's best to have extra boxes around. If a doe can't find a place for her kits, she'll have them on the ground, and let them die there.

Butchering age is up to you. I cull most kits at only 1 pound 12 ounces, because that's the perfect size for feeding my dogs. For humans, people generally butcher when the young rabbits reach about 5 pounds. Depending on breed that could be 12 weeks and up.

Your drawing looks good. I would put several holes through the wall for the does, so they won't block each other's access. Rabbits like to sit at the entrance and watch the world from just inside their shelter.

 

[Legacy]

One thing to note about the breeding frequency. When we had our colony, the breeding wasn't constant. Since the buck hangs with the does all the time, he is not as excited all the time and with a lot of space to run, the does were not as subjective to the buck. Yes, our bucks bred the does when they let them, but the does didn't let them as often and the bucks would take no for an answer a whole lot more readily.

 

[Starchild]

Now I only got a mix of dwarfs. I think some of them are lion heads, the rest I don't know. The typical rabbits small girls have in their backyard..

I want to try the New Zealand red later on. First I'll just try an fail (as little as possible hopefully) with what I've got and get the hang of it. Or maybe my mixed rabbits won't go well in a colony and I'll have to start from scratch with a NZ doe and buck as son as my pen is ready.

I don't mind constant breeding. All I want is more meat for less work. Ideally they should just run wild here, but I don't think my neigbours would be very pleased with that!

What are the down sides to rabbits nesting underground? You might have to check the holes for dead babies from time to time? Will the mother bite you if you just stick your hand in there?
Does rabbits in general ever bite?
Yesterday I was suddenly "attacked" by the mother when I was cuddling with one of the babies. She either scratched with me her teeth or just pounded her head into my hand, I'm not sure. But maybe it was my own fault as I nailed three nails for a hay feeder 2 minutes earlier... I guess rabbits dont like hammering but I had no choice..


"Whether they burrow or not, you should make the "bedroom" area big enough for at least 2 nest boxes per doe -- one for kits and one for lounging around in. (The lounging area doesn't have to have any actual nest boxes in it, just room enough for one per doe.) Given the choice, a doe will not sleep or eat near her nest. She'll only go back to the nest once or twice a day to feed the kits. I also find that the young kits will switch nest boxes at about three weeks of age. So, it's best to have extra boxes around. If a doe can't find a place for her kits, she'll have them on the ground, and let them die there."

2 boxes pr doe? Thats 40 boxes if I have 20 rabbits! :-O
Can I stack boxes in height? hoho

 

[JueLee]

2 boxes pr doe? Thats 40 boxes if I have 20 rabbits! :-O
Can I stack boxes in height? hoho

It's 20 boxes for 20 does, plus space enough for at least 20 more. If you free breed, you could easily have twenty litters at once, so you'll need them. If you control breeding by keeping the buck separate, then you can stagger the litters and use fewer boxes over all.

Start with just 2-3 does. You will have no trouble expanding your operation when you find you're ready for more.

I would not stack boxes. Even if the mothers are willing to jump up to the upper boxes, the kits will have a hard time of it when they are first learning to get in and out of the box.

 

[Starchild]

How big does the boxes have to be for a new zealand size ?

If it's for sleeping and nesting only, does it have to be bigger than something to crawl inside? After all, they prefer holes in the ground?
Maybe cutting a big pipe into smaller pieces, covering the ends with plywood and make a smaller hole for entrance..?
That would safe me alot of work making all those boxes..
Making sure the pips won't roll of course.

Why can't does share a sleeping box, as long as it's big enough?
One of my cages has two small outsige areas leading in to one sleeping room for two does... seems to work just fine..

 

[JueLee]

If your pipe is big enough, it should be fine. Rabbits aren't too picky about shape, but you need to make sure your boxes/pipes will be well ventilated. Unlike a hole in the ground, a nest box won't stay a constant temperature all day and night, and the walls won't absorb any extra moisture in the air. Ventilation will help compensate by letting any excess heat and moisture escape.

The nest box should be big enough front to back and side to side for the rabbit to crouch in it comfortably with a little space left over in each direction. It should be tall enough for her to sit up. Check out some of the rabbit birth videos on YouTube to get an idea of how she'll use the space.

I use lettuce crates for my nest boxes. Each crate is about 16" wide by 24" long and 12" high. I put a 6" high divider in the middle to make two compartments, each about nest box size for my rabbits.

Here's what mine look like:

The outside. The lid is removable so I can check on the kits. If your boxes are in a weather proof area, you won't need lids.


This one's ready for use. I put straw in the rear compartment for nesting.


Here's Smoke in the box so you can get a sense of the size. Smoke probably weighs around 7 pounds. New Zealands weigh 9 pounds or more.


Does can share the same sleeping area, as long as it's big enough. I'll bet the sleeping room in your cage is at least the size of two nest boxes.

 

[home*sweet*home]

One thing to note about the breeding frequency. When we had our colony, the breeding wasn't constant. Since the buck hangs with the does all the time, he is not as excited all the time and with a lot of space to run, the does were not as subjective to the buck. Yes, our bucks bred the does when they let them, but the does didn't let them as often and the bucks would take no for an answer a whole lot more readily.

I agree with that. We have had a colony all summer. We just got our first litter or kits this week. The buck tried to breed the doe the next day, she was not interested and he pouted off. They all cuddle together and preen each other, but the girls are in control in our colony, he is an accessory!

 

[Starchild]

but the girls are in control in our colony, he is an accessory!

Yeah... it's never up to us guys...


This is a plan of the colony area of my bunker. I'm thinking about dividing the room with pallets lined with wire mesh. Or some kind of thin plywood if the rabbits climb on the mesh.
As a base I want to put everything on 2x4's like in the right of the drawing, with wire mesh on top. That way I can collect the droppings from under the inside area.

The length of the room is 16ft and the depth of the colony will be 6.5 ft.
Could it be an idea to make long cages with adjustable closures after need? If the rabbits are not very bound to their sleeping box it shouldn't be a problem to move them around to provide nest boxes after need?
If so, it seems like what is limiting the number of rabbits is the lenght of the room and the width of each box. If I make the long cage of 2ft width, and make slits for closures every 1ft, will this be enough for a NZ size, given I'll move the rabbit next door and open up for an extra box for nesting? With a room of 16 ft that is theoretically 15 boxes, but something tells me I gonna need more pretty soon when that also includes nesting boxes.....

Maybe I should just make a number of separate boxes to move around, and make an extra hole (with a cover) to connect to boxes for nesting when necessary?

 

[JueLee]

16'x6' (rounding down) is 96 sq ft. At 4 sq ft per rabbit (equivalent to a 24"x24" cage), that's room enough for 24 rabbits. Use part of each 24"x24" for a nest box and the rest for resting area. So long as they always have outside access, 24"x24" should be plenty per rabbit. They'll get their exercise outside.

There's no need to fence off each rabbit's area in a colony, which means you can move the nest boxes around for your own convenience. The shape of the in between areas doesn't matter.

If you're meaning to put the whole 16' x 6.5' area on 2x4s with a wire mesh floor, you may have trouble accessing most of the area, which means trouble checking on kits, or trying to catch a doe that may be sick.

 

[Starchild]

I'm not sure if I follow you.. wouldn't that mean the whole area would be covered with boxes?

My idea was to make one long box with slits to move plywood sheets around as needed, nesting or not, with access to the boxes from outside the pen, leving a small inside room for lounging in case of bad weather like snow storms. I'm also gonna make a 50 sq ft roof/shelter for them right outside the bunker so they have the possibility to split up if they get trapped inside under bad weather.

But with seperate boxes maybe I could stack sleeping boxes two in height as long as I keep nestingboxes on the ground? That would save me -alot- of space! How attached does rabbits get to their box?

I can easily move inside if I set the 2x4 at 20" distance. Then I'll just have to make a 19.5" rake to get the poop out. Ideally they shouldn't be on mesh at all, but damn it! I want pure poop also!
That's just the price they'll have to pay for being able to goof around out in the "free".. =o)

Does rabbits ever bite? If so, what triggers them?

 

[JueLee]

If you move a bunch of the nest boxes to one side, side by side, instead of scattering them across the area, the effect would be about the same as building one long box divided into sections. So, which ever way works for you will work just fine. Rabbits are not picky.

I have not noticed any attachment to any particular box, though they do pick favorite spots in relation to the whole pen. If you put something in their way, they'll do their best to either move it, or destroy it.

Yes, you can stack sleeping areas. I didn't understand your drawing in the previous post, and I don't think I fully understand how you want to arrange things, but like I said, rabbits aren't picky. So, do what works for you.

The outside roof is a very good idea. They'll enjoy the shade even in good weather.

Yes, rabbits bite. They can rip your hand open before you know they've done it. But biting is rare.

Rabbits usually only bite out of fear or pain. Treat them properly and they should never bite. Do not tolerate a rabbit that bites for any other reason. Fear and pain you can fix. Biting for other reasons you probably can't.

 

[Starchild]

By attachment I meant if they return to their old box if you swap two rabbits, or if they return to their new box after being outside?


I think I'll start out what I've planned so far.. maybe putting up a picture series, so you guys can comment as I go.. since I know next to nothing about rabbits, exept from what I have read the last few weeks, so I could really need some info along the way..


What kind of material do you recomend for the boxes?
Here in Norway we have something called "finish plywood", that is kind of laminated, almost black, and it doesnt absorb moisture. But.. its double the price of regular plywood, so I was hoping there was a better alternative. Maybe putting in a piece of bath room membrane on the floor, going 2" up the wall?

Unfortunately I can't find any vegetable cases, or anything similar, like shown further up in this thread.. so I guess I'll have to make something myself..


But I'm leaning more and more against having a buck separated, and give him a couple of sterilized does to keep him company. At least until I get some more experience.
If I go all mixed I risk going from barely ever touched a rabbit to having my backyard full of free breeding rabbits in a matter of months.. in God only knows what numbers.. giving me God only knows what kind of trouble and challenges..

 

[JueLee]

By attachment I meant if they return to their old box if you swap two rabbits, or if they return to their new box after being outside?

What do you mean by swapping rabbits?


Regular plywood would probably be better for the boxes. The wood will get soiled over time and need replacing, but I'm not sure the "finish plywood" would be safe for rabbits to chew on. Rabbits will chew on almost anything, so your boxes will need replacement eventually anyway.

Solid untreated wood would be even better than plywood. Plywood of any sort contains glue and who knows what kind of chemical treatments.

Since your boxes will be indoors, you may be able to use metal or wire mesh nest boxes, too. Here's one of the boxes I used in my sheltered cages before I transitioned to colonies.


Bathroom membrane on the floor under your raised mesh sounds like a good idea. You don't want the urine to soak in. If your floor is concrete, you might also consider using deck paint. Deck paint on concrete makes a tough, waterproof surface.

But I'm leaning more and more against having a buck separated, and give him a couple of sterilized does to keep him company. At least until I get some more experience.
If I go all mixed I risk going from barely ever touched a rabbit to having my backyard full of free breeding rabbits in a matter of months.. in God only knows what numbers.. giving me God only knows what kind of trouble and challenges..

Yup. Good idea.

Looking forward to your pictures.

 

[Starchild]

By swapping I meant if I take a rabbit ready for nesting from a regular box to a nesting box, will she stay in her new nesting box or go straight back to her old regular box?
Maybe closing the door a while and give her some pellets and pea greens to settle down?
I have no idea, I'm just thinking out loud here... if its possible it could save me alot of work and money..

Good point about the chewing and glue. I don't want anything of that in my eco rabbits. They don't chew straight on the walls(?), but I'll definitely make the front with the entrance hole in natural wood!
The rest I could make in this "finish plywood" because its 100% waterproof and only have be hosed down and scrubbed now and then.
But it just struck me.. what is that coating film made of? Will they be sleeping in a damp of chemicals? I have to find out what it's made of if I'm gonna use it. The plywood is used as concrete molds, so that the concrete won't stick like regular plywood, and leave a smooth surface. The only picture I could find was this one..
http://www.peri.no/shared/products_new/ ... _18_12.jpg

Wouldn't rabbits feel more secure inside a box instead of in a cage? Or maybe I can use cages like this and just put a cardboard box over each cage? But I'd have to put a thin cheap replacable plywood sheet in the bottomns as the cages will be staying on wire mesh to (what's the correct word for this?).

With the membrane I was thinking of having it inside the boxes, so the plywood wouldn't soak in urine.. but I guess its out of the question with the chewing and all..

I read somewhere that is was not a good ide to let rabbits go on concrete as it gets really cold. Especially here in a concrete outhouse with occasionally arctic winters.
So I'll lift the floor with 2x4's and wire mesh and at least solid bottomn cages, or boxes.

Did you make this cage yourself? Cutting and welding? Looks scratch proof also. I'm already sick and tired of all the scratches I get from one of my cages. This will be a big! priority when making the colony!

Speaking of making the colony.. I have to get outside and get going.. I'm racing against time and a two story cage with seven 9 weeks old hoodlums, two nice ladies and a grumpy aunt. But the gumpy aunt and one of the nice ladies are not canditates for breeding, so I'm thinking of giving butchering a try one of these days..

...to be continued...

 

[JueLee]

A rabbit will decide where she wants to have her litter days before she's due. If she can get back to that spot when the time comes, she will. If she can't, she'll choose an alternative. Once she has them, she will not move them.

In a colony, it's easiest to let the does choose which boxes they want to use for what. So, I'm not sure what the difference would be between a nesting box and a "regular" box.

The correct word for a rabbit birthing a litter of bunnies is "kindle".

If you are going to separate a doe so she'll kindle in a separate cage alone, it's best to do so several days before she's due so she has time to settle in. But, I think this would defeat the purpose of having a colony.

There should be no need to separate a doe just because she's due. In a colony, the other does normally will not bother the kits. (There are exceptions, of course.) If you need to know who the parents are, you can keep the buck separate and stagger breedings so each litter will be a distinctly different age.

--

Yes, they will chew walls, too.

--

I agree rabbits are happier with a proper enclosure to kindle in, but a wire box like I showed in the picture will work in a sheltered area, such as inside a building. The doe will fill it with hay and fur to keep her kits snug and warm.

No, I didn't make that nest box. And it's not welded. It's held together with C-clips.

--

Rabbit Talk isn't picky about the words you use, but it's confusing when you seem to use different words interchangeably.

There's a difference between a "cage" and "nest box", even when the nest box is made out of cage wire. A cage is the whole enclosure a rabbit lives in all day. A nest box is the much smaller enclosure she kindles in. The nest box is placed inside the cage. She'll only spend a few minutes at a time in her nest box, and the rest of the time roaming around her cage.

In a colony, you generally say "pen" instead of "cage", but the nest box is still a nest box.

--

Another option for your floor might be to put a thick layer of bedding down on the concrete -- a whole lot of straw or the like. Depending on thickness and how many rabbits you have living on it, it could be months before the straw gets soiled enough to need cleaning out. I would still put deck paint or something down to seal the concrete in case any areas get too wet.

 

[MaggieJ]

In our indoor colony, we have a preference for nest tunnels as opposed to boxes. These are about 15" high and 15' wide and about 3' long. The top is hinged for easy access. This gives a good approximation of an actual in-the-earth tunnel and we have found no problems with kits dying from being dragged out of the nest on momma's teat.