The unsolved mystery

[Cottie]

Hello, RT!

We never did solve the mystery of the dying everything. We've had lots of tests done and no resolution. So we're embarking on an "experiment" to try to locate a cause.

(Recap: we lost animals across several species to an unknown neurological problem. We don't know what caused it and never found a way to prevent it.)

One doe will receive our water and one doe will receive bottled water. If the doe receiving bottled water can successfully rear a litter, we can narrow it down to our water. If neither can, we can narrow it down to environmental. If both can, we will be very puzzled and keep testing.

 

[Marinea]

*waves to RJ*

Hi! So sorry for your losses, but *fingers crossed* you get it figured out soon. (I am kinda afraid to hope it's the water, because y'all drink it too, right?)

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Hi RJ!!!

:welcomewagon:

Boy, long time no see! Out of curiosity I checked your profile- do you realize it has been since May- :evil: MAY! :evil: - since you have been here with us?!?

For shame! :nono:

Well, glad to see you back in any case. I hope you can get it figured out... if it is your water though, don't you think you humans would be showing some symptoms? :?

Any random twitching going on? :twisted:

 

[MaggieJ]

Nice to see you back, RJ. :bouncy:

Hope you manage to solve your mystery -- and that is something easy to remedy if you do figure it out.

 

[Cottie]

*waves to RJ*

Hi! So sorry for your losses, but *fingers crossed* you get it figured out soon. (I am kinda afraid to hope it's the water, because y'all drink it too, right?)

We stopped drinking the well water. Still use it for bathing, washing and some cooking, though. The tests came back entirely clean, so it's a long-shot. :? This is the best test we can think of.

Well, glad to see you back in any case. I hope you can get it figured out... if it is your water though, don't you think you humans would be showing some symptoms? :?

Any random twitching going on? :twisted:

That's the big question. How come we aren't getting sick - not that I'm complaining! :shock: That piglet we sent off was "perfectly healthy"...despite dropping dead. :x

Hope you manage to solve your mystery -- and that is something easy to remedy if you do figure it out.

We hope so, too! I think this will at least give us a lead on a problem.

Speaking of "this", here's what we have going! (Of course, I will get better pictures when there's light.)


We built this in the sideroom of our "little barn". It's been a wood and household storage area. A little dusty, and we did find some of the usual things you expect in a barn sideroom, but all in all I think this will do them nicely.

"Doe A" (top hutch) is bred, and due to receive a nestbox on 2/15. "Doe B" (middle) is also bred (but doesn't get a nestbox until 3/5). "Buck C" (bottom) is just chilling out for now. None of them are related (closely), and he's not the sire of either litter.

All 3 are receiving bottled water as a control. We'll do 3 rounds maximum of all receiving bottled, and will stop when (if?) we get a healthy litter that makes it to 8 weeks. At that point, Doe B will become to test subject and receive well water for the duration of her stay. We'll then breed/allocate water based on the results.

If we don't get a healthy litter...wellllll....we've got some decisions to make!!

And, in other news, I started a FT job so woooooo. ancake:

 

[MamaSheepdog]

That's the big question. How come we aren't getting sick - not that I'm complaining! :shock:

Yeah- thank heavens you guys aren't getting "it"... whatever "it" is. :?

Hmm... what, if anything, did all of the animals share in common aside from water? Hay? Straw? Shavings? Foraged feed?

That piglet we sent off was "perfectly healthy"...despite dropping dead. :x

Don't you just hate it when the "perfectly healthy" ones drop dead? On accident, anyway, not as just a step to freezer camp? :twisted:

And, in other news, I started a FT job so woooooo. ancake:

Really? Doing what? opcorn:

 

[Cottie]

Yeah- thank heavens you guys aren't getting "it"... whatever "it" is. :?

Hmm... what, if anything, did all of the animals share in common aside from water? Hay? Straw? Shavings? Foraged feed?

Living here, nothing else. It's either the water or environmental. I've had vets, friends in ag, even someone from the IL Dept of Ag out to look things over. There's no reason, other than tainted water or tainted environment.

Don't you just hate it when the "perfectly healthy" ones drop dead? On accident, anyway, not as just a step to freezer camp? :twisted:

Yeah. Several hundred $$$ to find out the piglet that went paralytic, seized and died had......nothing wrong. :evil:

Really? Doing what? opcorn:

Still doing web development. Just full-time now, no more of that contracting/freelance jazz!

 

[Marinea]

Woohoo, congrats on the job!

Please let us know what happens with your experiment. This is going to sound awful, but have you ruled out a human cause? If I were as badly stumped, I would consider a hidden game cam, just to be able to rule it out.

*hugs* and *fingers crossed* you get it worked out

 

[michaels4gardens]

Do you live near a hog farm?, hogs [in hog farms] in the midwest are usually vaccinated for pseudorabies, but -I have heard of others who live near a hog farm, having their animals just drop dead, from exposure to this hog disease.

 

[Cottie]

They tested for pseudorabies. It was top of the list - the only pathogen the vet could think of that would cause deaths across all the species.

__________ Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:36 pm __________

Woohoo, congrats on the job!

Please let us know what happens with your experiment. This is going to sound awful, but have you ruled out a human cause? If I were as badly stumped, I would consider a hidden game cam, just to be able to rule it out.

*hugs* and *fingers crossed* you get it worked out

We had a bunch of critters die inside the house (a pet rabbit, brooding ducklings & quail), so I think we ruled out human interference. <br /><br /> __________ Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:54 pm __________ <br /><br /> We did our nightly rounds. I am starting to see a few tell-tale signs of territorial pregnant rabbit from Doe A. She got a little box-y with me until she realized I came bearing gifts.

Doe B has stopped being quite so skittish but is still on the mean side. Their temperaments will definitely make the "experiment" easier.

Buck C is a sweetheart, which is going to make this more difficult as far as he's concerned.

 

[azbowhunter]

My money says you're looking for moldy conditions, likely correlated to the feed areas, possible bedding link.
If you got shavings with walnut in them, that would do it.
Walnut has toxins in it that are lethal in small amounts when ingested.
I loved working with the wood, but i had to use a respirator when i sanded it, or I'd have trouble breathing for a week.
In the mold area, you'd be looking for someplace that would be moist, not freeze, probably in the barn areas. Look for hidden possibilities, like a board on the ground in a corner, something covered or concealed, a pipe or vent type thing. ...
Attic spaces are also possible, as are walls.

 

[katiebear]

My money says you're looking for moldy conditions, likely correlated to the feed areas, possible bedding link.
If you got shavings with walnut in them, that would do it.
Walnut has toxins in it that are lethal in small amounts when ingested.
I loved working with the wood, but i had to use a respirator when i sanded it, or I'd have trouble breathing for a week.
In the mold area, you'd be looking for someplace that would be moist, not freeze, probably in the barn areas. Look for hidden possibilities, like a board on the ground in a corner, something covered or concealed, a pipe or vent type thing. ...
Attic spaces are also possible, as are walls.

I have been thinking the same thing.. Or maybe rodent droppings..Do you remember the Haunta (sp?) virus a couple of years back? up north on the reservation? That killed a few people before they figured out it was dust from moldy pack rat droppings.... :x

 

[Cottie]

My money says you're looking for moldy conditions, likely correlated to the feed areas, possible bedding link.
If you got shavings with walnut in them, that would do it.
Walnut has toxins in it that are lethal in small amounts when ingested.
I loved working with the wood, but i had to use a respirator when i sanded it, or I'd have trouble breathing for a week.
In the mold area, you'd be looking for someplace that would be moist, not freeze, probably in the barn areas. Look for hidden possibilities, like a board on the ground in a corner, something covered or concealed, a pipe or vent type thing. ...
Attic spaces are also possible, as are walls.

We've ruled out mold environmentally. We also changed our feed storage after rabbitpocalypse to make doubly sure there would be no mold.

Symptoms weren't consistent with Hantavirus. If animals in the house got it, the dogs (and us people) would have as well. Also, it wouldn't have killed in compact clusters. When I use the word "cluster", I mean several symptomatic critters in less than a handful of hours.

We thought perhaps it was lead toxicity for a while (one of the old barns *may* have lead paint, since it's circa 1920), but there was no evidence of that on the lab necropsy. That was another reason we kept some critters indoors. It gave us a chance to control for a number of factors.

It's really really really consistent with acute toxicity, but all the toxins that would cause it were ruled out. No lesions on any organ systems or traces of anything tell-tale on the pathology.

 

[Fernie]

Keep us updated on what you find.

 

[Cottie]

Doe A is reducing her feed intake, but gobbling up hay. She should be kindling at any time now. I think she was too far along when we got her to abort/absorb the litter.

Doe B is still a :rant:

 

[wamplercathy]

I'm very interested in your findings. My in-laws lost 3 Dobermans. All wasted away and had neurological symptoms. Had to have all 3 put down. I paid for the necropsy on all 3 and they all came back clean. We checked for genetics disorders too. Even had them run additional test to see if their potassium levels were high. Which would lead to antifreeze poisoning. But everything was normal. Both soil and water testing was done. I even paid to have their dog food tested. Still no answers. If I hadn't witnessed their decline personally then I would have just thought the dogs starved to death. But their food and water intake never decreased or increased. At the first signs of illness the dogs were taken to the vet. At that point we started keeping a dairy on them. Within 3 months they all 3 had to be put down. There was NO reason for their symptoms. But 3 dogs don't come down with the same health issue without a reason.

 

[michaels4gardens]

I'm very interested in your findings. My in-laws lost 3 Dobermans. All wasted away and had neurological symptoms. Had to have all 3 put down. I paid for the necropsy on all 3 and they all came back clean. We checked for genetics disorders too. Even had them run additional test to see if their potassium levels were high. Which would lead to antifreeze poisoning. But everything was normal. Both soil and water testing was done. I even paid to have their dog food tested. Still no answers. If I hadn't witnessed their decline personally then I would have just thought the dogs starved to death. But their food and water intake never decreased or increased. At the first signs of illness the dogs were taken to the vet. At that point we started keeping a dairy on them. Within 3 months they all 3 had to be put down. There was NO reason for their symptoms. But 3 dogs don't come down with the same health issue without a reason.

I had a customer that had her dog get sick just after the pest control man came by, there was just one foot print in the wet bug spray, the dog had a seizure , then seemed to recover ,and then wasted away like above.

 

[Miss M]

Whoa. :shock:

 

[wamplercathy]

That would make since. They never use anything on their yard but their property is surrounded by crop land. We never saw any seizure activity. But it could have happened and we just didn't wittness it. By the time we did test it would've been out of their system.

 

[Cottie]

Sadly what happened to your dobies sounds similar to what happened here. I hope you find the culprit. It's hard to get past without answers.

Doe A missed. Doe B kindled this morning - not in the nest box of course. I pulled her out to look her over and gave the nest a feel. She's so persnickety I didn't want to remove any kits. I felt 5 or 6, all warm and plump, very vocal.

If they make it through the next 2 weeks, the clock will start on the first round of testing.

__________ Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:46 am __________

Rebred Doe A on Wednesday and got two fall offs. I didn't put her in with the buck on Thursday, so hopefully that did the trick.

Doe B has 8 kits. She is refusing feed but eating hay, and her water consumption has gone down significantly. All the kits are fat and wiggling, so I've got my fingers crossed she bounces back soon. <br /><br /> __________ Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:58 pm __________ <br /><br /> She's back on feed. Phew.

Seems like all the kits are still OK, but I can't do more than pat my hand in quickly to check for cold spots, lest she attack.