The Great Crossbreeding Debate

[Frecs]

you can bet even long after I bred the other breed off their pedigrees, I'd mention possible recessives to future buyers. I don't want any surprises for them.

Seems to me from what has been said, recessives will always be there any any domestic rabbit no matter how "purebred" it is. It's just a matter of weeding out the undesirable recessives as much as possible so they don't become a major problem.

This has been a very informative discussion! Thanks to everyone who contributed!<br /><br />__________ Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:15 pm __________<br /><br />

All the breeds were developed by crossbreeding.

Technically, we do not know what breeds went into the silver foxes. For all any of us know, he used harlis and angoras and some breeders are just now seeing it after inbreeding. Those recessives are coming out.

I don't really see what the big deal is since it could have been carried for a very long time. I think some people just make a huge deal out of something very simple really to deal with.

Questions:

1. I've been wondering this since the big brewhahaha...as long as you don't cross a SF-harle gene carrier to another SF-harle gene carrier, the harle gene doesn't do anything. Right? So, what's the biggie? If you get harle's, you know not to breed those two together again. Ditto for wool.
2. Other than my solution (#1) what other ways would one "deal with" the discovery of "undesirable" genes? Well, obviously culling but, what else?

 

[Dood]

recessives will always be there any any domestic rabbit no matter how "purebred" it is.

No they shouldn't, that's my point!

My 3 original AmChins were not bred for their looks but production and are quite inbred (sisters, cousins and half brothers) If they had any recessives they certainly should have cropped up in their litters BUT they only produced chinchilla or squirrel (blue chin is permitted ) coloured kits!

Every one of them was AA BB cchd cchd D_ EE

Now that I have this doe with all these recessives - Aa B_ cchd c Dd Ee - and have kept her daughters and a son to get new blood in my stock, I have to worry about what they secretly carry and if buyers will get blacks, REWs, blues and ermine if they breed brother to sister!

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

recessives will always be there any any domestic rabbit no matter how "purebred" it is.

No they shouldn't, that's my point!

My 3 original AmChins were not bred for their looks but production and are quite inbred (sisters, cousins and half brothers) If they had any recessives they certainly should have cropped up in their litters BUT they only produced chinchilla or squirrel (blue chin is permitted ) coloured kits!

Every one of them was AA BB cchd cchd D_ EE

Now that I have this doe with all these recessives - Aa B_ cchd c Dd Ee - and have kept her daughters and a son to get new blood in my stock, I have to worry about what they secretly carry and if buyers will get blacks, REWs, blues and ermine if they breed brother to sister!

I agree, after a certain number of linebred rabbits have bred true you can quite honestly claim all recessives are well and truly gone.

 

[tailwagging]

recessives will always be there any any domestic rabbit no matter how "purebred" it is.

No they shouldn't, that's my point!

My 3 original AmChins were not bred for their looks but production and are quite inbred (sisters, cousins and half brothers) If they had any recessives they certainly should have cropped up in their litters BUT they only produced chinchilla or squirrel (blue chin is permitted ) coloured kits!

Every one of them was AA BB cchd cchd D_ EE

Now that I have this doe with all these recessives - Aa B_ cchd c Dd Ee - and have kept her daughters and a son to get new blood in my stock, I have to worry about what they secretly carry and if buyers will get blacks, REWs, blues and ermine if they breed brother to sister!

do a test breeding yourself and see. only keep the right colors and test breed until you get only the right colors.

 

[Frecs]

I see what ya'll are saying. Crossbreed in, if necessary, for particular purposes but then make sure you bred out the recessives so that they no longer show up in linebreeding situations. My harle/wool carrying SFs are do to the failure of the person who added those to pull them back out. Yes?

 

[WildWolf]

Just a disclaimer, I don't have much experience. Anyway, here's my opinion:

To me, recessive genes are just like bad type, bad fur, bad coloring, whatever. They're just another thing that you need to be careful of, and aware of (that's why it's important for breeders to tell you if they outcrossed), and *another thing to add to your goal of breeding*. If you want to produce only one color, then breed and cull out the recessives- like Dood. You're going to have to deal with recessives at some time, and really, it's pretty simple (but hard work) to get rid of.

 

[LauraNJ]

Just a disclaimer, I don't have much experience. Anyway, here's my opinion:

To me, recessive genes are just like bad type, bad fur, bad coloring, whatever. They're just another thing that you need to be careful of, and aware of (that's why it's important for breeders to tell you if they outcrossed), and *another thing to add to your goal of breeding*. If you want to produce only one color, then breed and cull out the recessives- like Dood. You're going to have to deal with recessives at some time, and really, it's pretty simple (but hard work) to get rid of.

Recessives can be a great thing. It works both ways.

 

[WildWolf]

exactly- I personally am delighted that my SF might be a wool carrier... I would love to have a few rabbits, but be able to have wooly and non wooly SF's.

 

[Dood]

do a test breeding yourself and see. only keep the right colors and test breed until you get only the right colors.

None of my sales are mature proven breeders but 8 week old kits!

If I hadn't had and 'oops' litter I would have never discovered the recessives. Her breeder never warned me she 'may' carry REW or self, (I will admit the non-extension could have been from way back.)

Her first litters were to my AA BB cchd cchd D_ EE buck who would keep her genes hidden in the kits.

It is ridiculous that must test breed my purebred and pedigreed doe because of unscrupulous breeders!

I'm not dissing crossbred, I now have two lines of meat mutts but just be honest about it!

Maybe a line for genotype should be added to an ARBA pedigree? Because of my experience I now give one to my AmChin buyers.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

do a test breeding yourself and see. only keep the right colors and test breed until you get only the right colors.

None of my sales are mature proven breeders but 8 week old kits!

If I hadn't had and 'oops' litter I would have never discovered the recessives. Her breeder never warned me she 'may' carry REW or self, (I will admit the non-extension could have been from way back.)

Her first litters were to my AA BB cchd cchd D_ EE buck who would keep her genes hidden in the kits.

It is ridiculous that must test breed my purebred and pedigreed doe because of unscrupulous breeders!

I'm not dissing crossbred, I now have two lines of meat mutts but just be honest about it!

Maybe a line for genotype should be added to an ARBA pedigree? Because of my experience I now give one to my AmChin buyers.

That would be nice. Prettymuch all the rabbits I have gotten, the breeder or seller made me aware of what they carry or what they MIGHT carry. My REW carries chocolate and MAY carry dilute. My blue carries REW. Both otter does carry self. Et cetera.

The only surprises I want are the "Oh wow look at all these healthy, CORRECTLY COLORED kits in the nest box, what a pleasant surprise!!!"

 

[Dood]

The only surprises I want are the "Oh wow look at all these healthy, CORRECTLY COLORED kits in the nest box, what a pleasant surprise!!!"

:yeahthat: its one of the reasons I chose the AmChin - NO SURPISES!!

 

[tailwagging]

do a test breeding yourself and see. only keep the right colors and test breed until you get only the right colors.

None of my sales are mature proven breeders but 8 week old kits!

If I hadn't had and 'oops' litter I would have never discovered the recessives. Her breeder never warned me she 'may' carry REW or self, (I will admit the non-extension could have been from way back.)

Her first litters were to my AA BB cchd cchd D_ EE buck who would keep her genes hidden in the kits.

It is ridiculous that must test breed my purebred and pedigreed doe because of unscrupulous breeders!

I'm not dissing crossbred, I now have two lines of meat mutts but just be honest about it!

Maybe a line for genotype should be added to an ARBA pedigree? Because of my experience I now give one to my AmChin buyers.

unless the breeder did the out cross or did a test breeding they might not have known either.

 

[Dood]

unless the breeder did the out cross or did a test breeding they might not have known either.

I'm not going to list her 4 gen pedigree but there is enough line and inbreeding that there is no way they didn't know. They would have gotten the same colours I did and be fully aware of the hidden recessives, IF they didn't do the actuall out crossing.

 

[WildWolf]

I like the idea of a genotype line on the ped. Also, I think that if you think the rabbit might carry something, then tell the buyer in person or at least write in under "notes" on the pedigree.

 

[WallTenter]

do a test breeding yourself and see. only keep the right colors and test breed until you get only the right colors.

Maybe a line for genotype should be added to an ARBA pedigree? Because of my experience I now give one to my AmChin buyers.

And how would you propose we prove that? Recessive genes can hide for at least 20 generations that we know of, even with linebreeding. And that would also require test mating every single rabbit that is breeding right now - to several rabbits. Even then there is no guarantee. I can say that I feel very confident saying my harlequin buck "KHYP" is aaejej, and my doe "KGIN" is AAeje, because of the test matings I've done. However I would not feel confident assuring someone that the doe will never pass on an a gene - I don't have the ability to test enough times in her lifetime to guarantee that unless that is the only thing I was breeding her for. No thanks I want to breed her for purebred kits

And both of those rabbits are purebred harlequin for many generations back, off the pedigree. However my crossbred doe GA02 I KNOW is Aaeje. And one of her crossbred kits is aaejej. So if japanese genes make a harlequin, genetically speaking that crossbred kit is more of a Harlequin than its grandmother (KGIN with only one japanese gene). And she looks it too.

Your AmChins don't carry any recessives that you know of, and then only because someone did the work up front and/or lucked out

They go home, raise up their very fine Hooplahs...breed them...and HALF THE LITTER ARE MARKED LIKE A WHATSITS.

Yep this is just an example of dishonesty - we see that on faked pedigrees, crossbreds sold as purebreds, and littermates sold as viable breeding trios, etc. etc. etc... you can't protect against liars no matter what your morals or goals or rules they will do whatever they want despite what we do. When we have crossed out we are brutally honest about it. We make sure people know what genetic recessives they could be hiding (of course we have to give the same spiel for the purebred litters because a lot of purebred harlie litters get torted harlequins (aaeje) or dutch spotting gene etc. etc. etc. and that's after years and years of breeders trying to breed those faults out.

The more research I do on the genetics and see it at work in the litters the more I realize so much of what I was told when I started with them was unintentional misinformation. Makes you really question the rules and realize that with nature, there aren't any - she'll take your pretty little statistical analysis and use it for compost.