The Great Crossbreeding Debate

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Cattle Cait

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I've been getting some flack lately from show breeders regarding me crossbreeding my rabbits. I used to show as well, I'm certainly not opposed to purebred breeding, and I do in fact raise pedigreed American Chinchillas (and Silvers, eventually, if I can locate a doe for poor Forrest). Some prospective buyers actually had the gall to ask if they were actually purebred, because they noticed I had a lot of crossbreds for sale, and they were concerned that my American Chins had something mixed in. I tell them that one of the does in my AmChin program is 1/4 New Zealand, that's it, because I'm honest about it. Just because I mix breeds doesn't make me any less responsible or trustworthy.

I crossbreed because it works for me. Do I throw these mutts on the show table? Not hardly. I've even been recommended to, because some of them turn out looking like AmChins because I use my AmChin buck in my meat herd a lot, but I never do. Sometimes breeders razzle me about that too, but seriously, what's the problem? So I "wasted" one of my buck's breedings on a meat doe. A whole thirty seconds of his life. Whoop-di-do.

I hear all the time, "Why do you need to crossbreed when you could be preserving a rare breed or promoting and bettering an existing breed?" The bottom line is simply that I don't wanna. I'm preserving and improving the American Chinchillas just fine but they don't fill my market need. They're more valuable as breeding stock then processed in the freezer. I'm even finding my worthless crossbreds to be healthier and have better meat quality. It's easier to "improve" when you can color outside the lines and not concentrate on other show-related factors such as ring color or depth of body (my meat rabbits are flat as pancakes), so on and so forth. It leaves me with much more space to work with more important qualities - rate of gain, mothering ability, etc.

Does anyone else have issues like this, getting crap from breeders for harboring "worthless, unpedigreed mutts"?

Rant over.
 
I haven't gotten flack but there has been a big brew-haha on a Silver Fox FB group recently about breeders who crossbreed but don't put that information in the pedigree (either falsifying the ped or letting it work out of the 3-gen ped). A reputable breeder discovered that almost her entire herd are carriers of genes that had to come from another breeder doing said crossbreeding without revealing that info. The ramifications are huge...to her and to everyone who bought rabbits from her. That said, there is nothing wrong with breeding meat mutts either while also breeding purebreds or not. It is your rabbitry to do with as you please. BUT, just be honest about what you are producing.
 
I wouldn't take it personally. The prospective buyers just want to be sure they're getting purebred rabbits. Not all breeders are as honest as we'd like them to be.

For instance, I saw an ad for Californian/New Zealand mix rabbits for sale close to here. The ad changed to Californian, using the same picture as the mix ad, so they're now representing the same rabbits as pure Californians.

I have pedigreed NWZs and also mixed Cali/NZW rabbits. I wouldn't be upset if someone wanted me to assure them that the purebreds are genuine. I can easily answer why I mix and why I keep a pure pedigreed line going along side.
 
I haven't had that problem, but then I have only been showing for a short amount of time, and don't really know a lot of breeders, and certainly don't know any "top" breeders.

It probably stems from the fact that cage space is always limited, so why "waste" a hole on a mutt? Additionally, I bet they miss your presence at shows, and want you back in the showroom "where you belong". I know you have been involved with rabbits through 4-H for years, and I bet they see you as a promising young breeder who should be carrying the rabbit breeding torch into the next generation.

My only mutts are my "Leonis Rex" out of my Rex and oversized Craigslist LionHeads that were likely mutts themselves. So far I have been quite impressed with their meaty qualities, and the mothering abilities of the does.

It is a fun little side project even though most of them will end up in the freezer, especially in these first generations as I try to achieve a maned, Rex furred rabbit.

Your crossbred mutts fill a niche for affordable meat rabbits with good health and production, so keep it up. :)
 
I haven't had a problem with show people 'scorning' me but...
carriers of genes that had to come from another breeder doing said crossbreeding without revealing that info
I have this problem with one of my dilute carrying AmChin does.
When I accidentally bred her to magpie mini lop I got magpies, so she must carry non extension - I then decided to breed her to my NZx to see what else was hidding and I got REW and black, so she also carries self and REW!

The only gene she isn't recesive for is chocolate and I am not a happy camper! I paid good money for this girl and wanted to use her for my show line but I won't be un-ethical about it and I do warn people about what may be lurking in the 'purebred' kits from this pedigreed doe with champion parents and who's grandparents are listed as chinchilla coloured but now I wonder if the pedigree is accurate.

And think of it this way, I may never have discovered theses hidden recessive if I hadn't done the cross breeding :D
 
Sorry you get flak from breeders for mixing. I have better sells on my mix breeds than my purebred. I breed fore purebred when I want for myself now. I have some purebred NZW' s and Cremes growing up so now I am crossing my rabbits for meat. I have a huge Champagne buck who I am now using a lot. We have a mix we crossed with a Creme and got beutiful babies that will sell fast as mix pets. They came out as a orange bridle with black and white on it. I don't know the proper wording. It is great to breed purebred rare rabbits but if no one is buying what good does it do? I think it is neat how you are working on a meat mutt that is what you want.
 
tailwagging":3ry39u9h said:
Rabbit breeds/shows are about phenotype not genotype.
Yeah, but besides being a disqualification - who in their right mind wants a REW America Chinchilla?

With that way of thinking I could have saved myself a lot of time and money if I bought a bunch of Cali does and an AmChin buck and passed off the kits as PUREBRED - doesn't that word mean anything anymore?!

What's the point of trying to preserve a rare breed if any grey rabbit with a commercial type and good ring colour can be labeled AmChin or any black silver can be called a Silver Fox?
 
All the breeds were developed by crossbreeding.

Technically, we do not know what breeds went into the silver foxes. For all any of us know, he used harlis and angoras and some breeders are just now seeing it after inbreeding. Those recessives are coming out.

I don't really see what the big deal is since it could have been carried for a very long time. I think some people just make a huge deal out of something very simple really to deal with.

Too much drama gets added in and not enough common sense. The rare breeds all seem to suffer a lack of hardiness compared to very popular breeds. Sometimes breeding in another breed gives you that boost so they can continue.

I wouldn't worry about people asking you about the crossbred rabbits or let it bother you if they give you a hard time.

I would tell them you are developing your own unique meat breed, that this is your project you are doing. Makes it sound more professional if you have a goal of making a new breed. Didn't I read that your goal is to develop a meat breed? So, just say that. Put it in your ads for the crossbred rabbits that they are the beginning or 2nd generation of your new meat breed.
 
The wooly gene is one recessive. So, it matches up and there you go.

5 recessives, probably not since the inception of a breed but you never know. If it did, that would just be bad luck to keep choosing the one carrying to be used for breeding. It is more probable that someone bred in another breed but perhaps it was felt that it was worth it at the time. Maybe they were having hardiness issues or type issues or small litters.

I bred my BEW beveren buck to 2 blue does- neither of which should be a Vienna carrier. One litter all are Vienna marked, sometimes a very small, almost non existent white hair here or there but somewhere they all have a little white which is what I was expecting from both litters.

Other litter no white spots, splotches, hairs, nothing. Correct colored nails at 3 weeks. I did not get any BEWs though so my doe is not a Vienna carrier.

It is very strange the perfect colors, correct eye color, nails, everything, it is like I bred to a blue but I do not have a blue buck and the only one she was bred to was the BEW.

I was planning to breed back to BEWs with the 2 litters to bring in some genetic diversity to the BEW line. I may just breed one of the correctly colored kits to a blue buck I have coming in a few weeks to see what I get late winter time.

To see if the stray hairs, wrong nail color hit that generation or perhaps there are some modifiers at work, I don't know but I am finding it interesting.
 
They're your rabbits. You can breed them however you want. As long as you don't try to pass them off as purebreds when they're not (and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't do that), I don't see what their problem is. If they just need a little extra reassurance that they're getting purebreds from you, then fine, otherwise, they need to back off.
 
I agree recessives are a pain, but it's not just crossbreeders that need to be checking for them and breeding against them. We get REW, torted, californian, dutch belted, etc. kits in purebred Harlequin litters across the country. There aren't many faults that don't pop up, just because people think "oh they're purebred"... Yeah... no.

If that were the case we'd all have Agouti rabbits with a few random mutations running around. All the breeds are crosses - a rabbit is only a combination of genes and years put into accentuating those genes.

We see this same thing in poultry (more so than in rabbits, I think). I give this spiel...

If you went to the Zinger-o auction and saw two gorgeous rabbits of Hooplah breed, I mean really nice ones. You really needed new stock so you take the risk and buy them. You take them home and realize wow they're nicer than any others I had! You breed them and they have gorgeous Hooplah kits incredible type color and fur. You breed them to your other Hooplahs and they do well crossing in it seems like they just consistently throw nice kits! Then you breed their kits and they also throw nice kits. Four or five years go by and you have a barn full of champion Hooplahs that are just superb hard to find anything to beat them. Someone walks up to you and says "oh yes my uncle bred Hooplahs he crossed out to DooDads, I remember once in July of 2013 he got sick and had to downsize so took most of his nicest animals to the Zinger-o auction hoping to save them from starvation he just couldn't feed them anymore. But they were all only 3/4 Hooplah and 1/4 DooDad."

Those great Hooplahs you bought weren't purebred, but they bred better than the "purebreds". Would you go home and destroy the best lines in your barn, because they had a DooDad back there somewhere? Especially if the Hooplah was originally bred from DooDads crossed with Hoopdidoos? I think not. There are breeds and varieties of poultry in this country that are GONE done zippo because no one wanted to cross out for risk of losing type or color. What what kind of type or color do you have on an extinct breed or variety?

I do not advocate for crossing willy-nilly, but the whole "they aren't purebred and never will be" is a bunch of cow dung. NONE of the breeds we have today are anything but mutts bred with other mutts that looked like that breeder wanted them. It's a matter of how many generations removed. That's why there are pedigreed "purebred" litters with surprises every day, even when you can trace the pedigree back twenty generations to the founding of some of the newer breeds. There is a tiny number of livestock breeds that we could even call "pure" and even then there is more difference within the breeds than there are between the breeds, so breed the best to the best cull the rest and try not to breed a bunch of recessives in if you have the chance and aren't willing to test and cull them out. Be honest on your pedigrees and let the rabbit in front of you speak for itself.
 
I love Breed Nazi's, and piss them off on a regular basis. Had one spout how unfair it was that people were crossbreeding and beating others on the table with rabbits that she didn't consider 'Pure', oh Boo freaking hooooo. Maybe those people crossbreeding have a better understanding of genetics and how to create better rabbits than those who don't 'Color outside the lines'.

Rabbits are shown on Phenotype, not Genotype, thats the facts, its how it works, what it looks like is what it can be shown as. First gen is 50%, second 75%, third 87%, Fourth and your cross is off the ped and is considered pure. Can there be lots of hidden recessives? Yup, in any breed, my particular peeve is REW, really hate when it pops up in a breed where it doesn't belong, makes me knash my teeth, but does that mean that it isn't a purebred rabbit? No, of course its purebred, its true color is just hidden under an albino gene, just like dilute, or non-extension, their just color changers, and shouldn't be there but hey they can hang around for many many generations, think about the Rex coated Flemish that sometimes pop up, or wool in New Zealands, its there, it just needs another recessive to match up with.

Now some aren't going to like this but most Rare breeds need to be outcrossed, many of them have some deeply ingrained faults that can't be bred out crossing only to each other, and then there's certain health problems that some breeds have. They need fresh healthy blood, and rabbits are so plastic genetically that it doesn't take long to get them back to breed standard. Problem is making the right choice for a outcross, one that will add as few extra genes as possible, and will take the shortest number of gens to correct, while keeping the charateristics you crossed out for. Thats the problem, people using what they have on hand instead of seeking out the best possible breed for an outcross. It was stupid to cross Beverens into Hotots, the vienna gene does not belong in an extremely white factored breed. With any blue in the eye being a DQ it made it very hard for breeders to get showable animals. You must choose wisely, and do as little harm as possible, thats my motto.

Breeders are artists, shaping and building and creating, a good knowlegdeable one can improve and leave a lasting impression on any breed, even if their doing outcrosses. An ignorant breeder can damage a breed even staying within the breed and not outcrossing. Its all in how you use what you know.
 
But they were all only 3/4 Hooplah and 1/4 DooDad."
I have no problem with great great grand parents being mutts. After several generations of selecting for Hooplah phenotype they are Hooplahs

But my breed is only allowed to be two colours - chin and blue chin - so unless he us culling anything that isn't chin coloured or the ones that throw non-chin kits he is NEVER going to get purebred AmChins, at least IMHO.

Your scenario only works for breeds that permit every cour under the sun, and there aren't too many that fit that category.
 
Dood":1ukq34ds said:
But they were all only 3/4 Hooplah and 1/4 DooDad."
I have no problem with great great grand parents being mutts. After several generations of selecting for Hooplah phenotype they are Hooplahs

But my breed is only allowed to be two colours - chin and blue chin - so unless he us culling anything that isn't chin coloured or the ones that throw non-chin kits he is NEVER going to get purebred AmChins, at least IMHO.

Your scenario only works for breeds that permit every cour under the sun, and there aren't too many that fit that category.

No. If DooDads come in black blue and chocolate (and fourteen others) and Hooplahs only come in let's say lilac and chocolate, you can breed out the other colors from a DooDad to get a nice chocolate Hooplah, and you've hopefully improved type and other traits along the way. I am saying if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck AND IT PRODUCES MORE DUCKS it's a duck :D
 
I think I would like a Hooplah, but I would only breed it back to a Wocket, because everyone knows that Hooplahs were bred from a mix of Wockets, Sneetches, and Whos.

I had to. I'm sorry. :)

I love your guys responses, though. It does make me feel better about what I do!
 
Just my two cents, but...I think it varies on species.

In rabbits, so long as outcrossing is done by someone who knows what they are doing, it's okay. It needs to be many generations (i.e., off a pedigree) before I'd consider them purebred, but after that...whatever. However I do also feel that some breeders aren't honest about outcrossing...or they sell stock that is very recently crossed and then an unsuspecting new owner finds out they didn't get what they paid for.

Let's take the Hooplahs. Someone breeds these nice Hooplahs but they just don't have the best type. So the breeder, he goes and buys a really nice Whatsits buck. The Whatsits has a great type, and crossed with his Hooplahs, makes some dang nice rabbits!!! They look like Hooplahs, they win all over on the show table, and he's happy. Another breeder comes along, sees that this guy has the best Hooplas and wants to buy a breeding pair. So they pay top dollar for Hooplahs, not realizing that those Hooplahs are half Whatsits.

They go home, raise up their very fine Hooplahs...breed them...and HALF THE LITTER ARE MARKED LIKE A WHATSITS.

I've seen some folk get "what the heck" colored Champagnes before...they suddenly pop out REWs who look an awful lot like NZ, or one gal I saw on FB a while back got a bunch of kits that looked like Californians. :?

So yes, outcrossing is okay but it does throw a wrench into things sometimes. If I crossed in, say...I dunno, whatever, to improve my Champagnes...you can bet even long after I bred the other breed off their pedigrees, I'd mention possible recessives to future buyers. I don't want any surprises for them. :)
 

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