The dilemma...continue for fiber, or go purebred?

[Anntann]

I have 3 adult does who are all English/French cross, with LOVELY fiber for spinning. The lady I purchased them from culls heavily, and has been breeding angoras for fiber for a couple of decades and her fiber is superb.

BUT, I'm finding myself torn in finding a buck for the girls. I have a lovely English/French cross (Chuck) who has glorious English type fiber, but he sheds! (which I love)...but he's on the small side and I'm afraid that this next cross (which is already on the ground) is going to have MORE English qualities...which is find in a purebred English angora...but ....

so. The dilemma. Do I bring in a purebred French Angora to make sure the shedding and size continue, or do I continue to use Chuck? (and while chuck is a Himmy, he has black in 3 of 4 grandparents...all three of my does also have black in at least 1 grandparent)

I'm intrigued by showing, but the fiber is more important right now. oh sigh. I hate decisions.

 

[MaggieJ]

If your does are all English/French crosses, Won't all their offspring will be crosses too... therefore, not really show material?

I'd wait a bit and see how the fibre is on the new younsters... and do an assessment then. Seems to me you might want to bring in two French Angoras... buck and doe... so you have some purebreds for showing and some crosses for fibre. You could still keep Chuck as a back-up buck if you wanted and breed him occasionally, especially to the French Angoras to bring back some of the English quality to the wool.

Please note that this may be total hogwash... I am not experienced with Angoras, as you know, and am relying on what I remember from all the posts I have read.

 

[Brody]

a lovely french buck .. or satin buck () would be wonderful as an addition to your herd

Maggie, Ann's going to show JW One french buck is enough <br /><br />__________ Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:13 pm __________<br /><br />this is my big thing about mixed breed anythings .. they need to have purpose (which yours do - FIBRE) but having purebred somehow legitmates (doubt that's a word but do you know what I mean?) the breeding in my eye (not knocking you or the wonderful seller of the fibre fellas)

if you want to consider moving to purebreds I think it's important to be really clear about your reasons and your goals (for you I mean not for anyone else)
if you want the best fibre ever does that mean moving whole herd to purebred (probably not actually) or simply having some options of breed to continue improving coat in whatever way you want?

I was thinking about it while cooking - I think adding a french/satin buck might be the answer for you for now

 

[Anntann]

:rotfl: you two are incorrigible!

I guess my er, un-sure-ity, is: do I turn the colony more toward French, by bringing in a French Buck, who I could then breed to a purchased French doe..and have a pen of purebred French, in addition to the current girls; or do I stay with who I have, and incorporate a new buck only if Chuck's offspring turn out to have more English aspect than I want.

I'm leaning toward a French buck to breed size back into the group. and then keeping 1 of those female kits (or more) to breed to Chuck again. (or one of the male offspring from Chuck x currentgirls)

And I am not going to show JW. I'm going to bring Trufflebee up to Ontario in the Spring, and see if SOMEONE needs/wants/ a 2nd JW buck....ahem.

btw: for showing, apparently they just have to conform to the standard. so, 'purebred' isn't really necessary, but....

 

[Brody]

hehehe what will do flip a coin when the time comes - Truf comes up or 2 does go down? LOL

I think a french buck ( along with a satin pair then) will allow you the diversity and options you want

 

[ladysown]

And I am not going to show JW. I'm going to bring Trufflebee up to Ontario in the Spring, and see if SOMEONE needs/wants/ a 2nd JW buck....ahem.

ah Ann...you might go home with a JW girlie for trufflebee then.

I do like your plan though..

.I'm leaning toward a French buck to breed size back into the group. and then keeping 1 of those female kits (or more) to breed to Chuck again. (or one of the male offspring from Chuck x currentgirls)

go with frenchie and use him with your current girls. It's not like you can't keep Chuck and have two colonies...for Chuck and the girls from the frenchie boy.

If you want to show....get a girlie to go with the frenchie boy. She can stay by herself and you can always bring out the boy to "play" with the girlie. For an hour or two that won't hurt the colony (more like 15 minutes).

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

I hope I got this right. You have some does who are fr./eng. crosses and a buck thats the same cross? Are they out of an english parent AND a French parent(50/50?)? If that is the case your offspring have just as much chance to go completly"french" as they do completly "english" Each parent has 2 sets of genes and contributes one to the offspring. Therefore they could pass on a french gene OR an english gene! Each kit has a chance of either English/English; french/french ; English/french and french/ english. I know the last two are the same in the end so theres a 50% of continuing the mix you have and 25% of either french or english. Thats only if the angoras are a 50/50 split tho. It just gets more complicated from there but in the end you COULD have your own variety that has characteristics that you want/need.

I simplfied the french english thing because there are way more than one set of genes "making up" the characteristics of each breed.This is pretty long winded as it is lol.
Now what you do would depend on how much time and space you have for this; and what you want; and how much risk of getting the wrong thing is worth to you! I unfortunatly don't spin (yet hehe) so I have no idea what the difference is in each angora breed except outward appearance! I thought all rabbits moulted? Mine all certainly do and usually just before a big show hahaha :x :x

 

[Anntann]

These angoras have been bred by a lady who breeds just for fiber..and it's a long time thing. She started with purebred French a decade ago. Over time, she added English here and there. She's kept immaculate records, and culled heavily so that her rabbits consistently have a 3month shed, and few guardhairs...but VERY little matting. She found that keeping the 50/50 ratio worked for her...but recently has started adding in a PureBred English buck (chocolate) for the finer wool, and the color. (she had a LOT of black in her rabbits, and she's not happy with that)

now. My 4. One doe is related to the buck by 1 grandparent. Otherwise..no one is related. 2 Does are French/English x English/French. 1 Doe is English x French/English. The buck is English/French x English/French Did that make sense? The parents and grandparents are mostly crosses, kept at a 50/50 in the background....she breeds ONLY for the wool quality. Not breed type.
My girls all look like mutts Bodies tend toward the French, but the ears show English, and one has face furnishings.

The BUCK is definitely showing more English qualities than the girls are. His wool is super fine, more prone to matting, (but he still sheds on a 3 to 4 month timing) and his face/head are certainly more "English".

Hence my dilemma. If I ever want to show, I need to go purebred and keep them separate. BUT, I'm not averse to just keeping up the woolers and not show. I do think that I'm getting too much English in the mix now, tho. I like the larger bodies on the French, and I don't mind guard hair.

Confusing...I'm sorry


about moulting....the problem with the English is that they tend to matt excessively because of the super fine wool when the new hairs/wool pushes out the old...so many people shear. I believe there are some rabbits that simply don't shed/moult often enough to make plucking worth while.... so those folks shear.

 

[rabbitgeek]

I would bring in a French Doe and start adding French to your lines. By bringing in a doe instead of a buck, you will be able to see how she meshes with your other lines one litter at a time.

If you bring in a buck and breed to everything, you may end up with a whole generation of rabbits you don't like.

The French seem to be more in line with your overall fiber goals.

You can SHOW your first litters if they look like French angoras. You just cannot REGISTER as French until the cross breds are off the pedigree. This takes about two years of breeding and replacing.

In the meantime you will be looking for those Frenchies that have the type of wool that you desire, which means you have to grow them out for wool and test for molting, etc.

This means it will take longer to get the generations off the pedigree, but you want to breed only rabbits that are in your wool requirement and still meet the French standard.

I would not add Satin angora to your French/English mix. This only adds another handful of genes to the mix. Satins are best bred to be Satins.

My lovely wife spent years breeding Satin Angoras and it is a challenge to get the right wool type and body type on the same rabbit.

If you want to show rabbits, work them in slowly but don't harm your wool production. Maybe even start with one pair of French as show stock and work them into your breeding rotation.

Don't forget to have an outlet for culls because not every rabbit born is a keeper.

Have a good day!

 

[Anntann]

thanks for the advice on that. A doe...good. I can do that happily.

oh gosh. Now I have to start looking...isn't that just HORRIBLE? :lol:

 

[Brody]

ohhhhhhhh a nice french doe

 

[Anntann]

golly. wish I knew someone who had one.....

 

[rabbitgeek]

I forgot to adress your need for a buck. You need to find a keeper from your litters. Having all that great fiber bloodline will be lost if you bring in a buck from outside.

Even though your current buck may be going strong, you should always have a second or third buck as a backup in case the main buck falls over dead for no reason at all.

You should also be thinking of replacing the buck every two generations so you don't get pedigrees with the same herd buck all over the background.

By bringing in an outside buck, you'll be introducing new genes to every litter.

By growing your own bucks you'll have a chance to select for best features.

Have a good day!

 

[Brody]

gosh gee whilkers you probably will by parteeee time

 

[Anntann]

Oh...I hadn't thought about the buck and keeping the bloodlines there....and a spare.

oh golly. more to think about

hmmm. I wonder...Chuck on a French doe. and on Vienna (who has only a little black in her background)...keep a buck from Vienna's litter...oh geez. I need a spreadsheet.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

If you are happy with your present lines and they provide what you need, keeping the buck kits/present herd buck is great as they will have way more influence on your entire herd than a single doe.Its ok to have that buck show up in several spots on one ped. as this means he has a major influence on the kit produced. If he is what you want that is.Rabbits are made for linebreeding/inbreeding as are most animals. Its what you start with thats key. JunkXJunk=Junk no matter what type of breeding program you have.The biggest task of any program is to find what you need and want in your rabbits first, this is what takes time(a lot!)I think you have obviously benefited from another breeders time in that regard so you are ahead there!So I would agree with Rabbitgeek about the bringing in of a doe instead of a buck. I have also always said keep what improves your line be it buck or doe! Now I think you are also concerned about colour as you obviously spin fibre and its what you are breeding for as well. so.. what colour are Chuck and Vienna? I think black is not wanted corect?

 

[Anntann]

Thanks you all for your comments and help

about color...I can get black kits easily with the girls I've got...and I actually LIKE the black/grey wool. BUT I'm unusual, apparently. Most people that i've been talking to about the fiber I'm plucking (potential customers for fiber and rabbits) mostly want the browns, tans, white. so...this is a problem.

I will look for a doe to bring in that has either chocolate or the tans (or possibly a straight REW). Chuck is a Himmy, and Vienna a VERY french looking (body type) blue tort. her wool spins up like a strand of light caramel.

 

[avdpas77]

I can get you some good plans for a building addition

 

[Anntann]

great. thanks a bunch. I need to get RID of a few rabbits...although..if I had another room, I could do a full set of French does with buck..and then add in as I wanted to..and then I could have Satins, too. OOOOooo.... Satin angora is sooo purty...

 

[Brody]

HAHAHAHA I didn't know I was contagious