Taco's Autopsy Photos(warning, graphic)

[Bad Habit]

**Autopsy photos in a later post**

I have a ~6mth old mostly New Zealand buck, Taco. Yesterday, I noticed he hadn't eaten all of his food from the day before(normally he's a chowhound and devours everything in sight). There wasn't a huge amount left, he had eaten a good majority of it. So I didn't get too upset. He was acting relatively normal(except for the part where normally he charges the food dish at feeding time). I gave him fresh food and water, pulled him out and checked him over(all a-okay) and went on my merry way. Go out to check this morning, and he's got his front feet in the food dish, is sitting very hunched up, next to no food gone, no water drank. He was either chewing a pellet or grinding his teeth. I pulled him out to look him over again, he snuggled in close to me, which is abnormal for him. When I went to flip him on his back to check him over, he spazzed right the hell out. Flinging himself all over the place, trying to bite me, kicking like the dickens. I finally get him back into his cage, where he runs to the back corner, sits hunched up and grunts whenever I reach into the cage.

At this point, I have no idea what to do. There's no obvious injuries, no signs of illness(eyes/ears/nose all clean, no wheezing or head tilting), he doesn't feel bloated. I gave him hay, I don't know if he'll eat it. Front teeth are fine(I have no way to check the back teeth), vent is fine.

All I know is that he's not acting like himself, and he's not eating, and his posture leads me to believe he is hurting or not feeling well. If I can't figure out what's going on quickly, I'm going to have to cull him. Any suggestions?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I would check his lungs- sometimes you can feel a rattling when you lift them up with a hand around the ribs, or you can lay your ear against his ribs and listen.

The only other thing I can think of to do is get him out and run him around a bit in case he is losing gut motility for some reason.

 

[Bad Habit]

A bit more info, because I totally didn't think of it until my friend texted :

My friend brought me 2 grow outs in trade for some adult rabbits, my mom wanted to fry some rabbit but the only rabbits I had were too old(Taco's siblings).

When I butchered the grow outs, I found a half dozen cysts between the 2 livers. She's currently treating her herd for coccidiosis because of this. I sterilized everything that the grow outs touched using paper towels soaked in bleach(everything I read said it needed 20 min contact and that's the only way I could figure to do it). I don't think Taco was ever beside them/in a cage they were in.

She's bringing some medication for me to give to him, just in case, when she comes to pick up another doe, something she got from the vet for her herd.

From the symptoms I've read, he doesn't have coccidiosis, as he's missing a few of the essential symptoms. <br /><br /> -- Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:42 pm -- <br /><br /> Someone's also suggested giving simethicone? and probios.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I'd treat him as if he has coccidia and go ahead and give the simethicone and probios- they wont hurt him and may help.

 

[Bad Habit]

that's kind of my plan. Give him everything I can possibly think of and hope I don't end up with a really expensive, but useless, medication filled carcass. <br /><br /> -- Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:06 pm -- <br /><br /> So, I think he's just gassy. I had him out for a run around(erm... more of a chasing him around being loud and scary because he didn't want to move), and then gave him a tummy massage, and he let out the BIGGEST RANKEST FART ever. Then, when I put him back in his cage, he drank an entire dish of water, and started munching on the hay. He's still sitting really tucked up and not completely comfortable, but is looking/acting a lot better than this morning.

 

[grumpy]

When you flipped him......his belly hurt.......BAD.

Sounds like cocci w/some secondary enteritis.
(they don't have to show all of the symptoms.)

Rolled oats and hay.....nothing else.

 

[Bad Habit]

I've left some pellets in his dish, not many but enough so I can see if his appetite comes back. He is eating some hay, I think, but for all I know most of it is falling through the cage floor or being pulled out when I take him out. He has a separate dish of rolled oats, but again, no idea how much is going in him, and how much is going through the cage floor.

I'm not hearing any teeth grinding.

I cleaned his drop pan and can report the droppings he is producing, while few, are normal size and shape.

I know that they don't have to show all of the symptoms, grumpy, but the symptoms he IS showing are not exclusive to cocci. Would you have suggested that without knowing the secondary information, if all you had was he was anorexic, depressed and listless? I'm just not convinced that it would have gotten transmitted, I'm very positive he wasn't near the grow outs, and I disinfected the cage the growouts were in after I butchered.

He did not get the medication from my friend - she lives over an hour away, and her daughter wasn't feeling well, and because Taco was feeling better after getting out and running around and farting, we figured he would be okay overnight.

I massaged his belly again at feeding time, and will probably go out once more right before bed.

 

[grumpy]

I know that they don't have to show all of the symptoms, grumpy, but the symptoms he IS showing are not exclusive to cocci. Would you have suggested that without knowing the secondary information, if all you had was he was anorexic, depressed and listless? I'm just not convinced that it would have gotten transmitted, I'm very positive he wasn't near the grow outs, and I disinfected the cage the grow-outs were in after I butchered.

Probably, Yes. Because, that is the most plausible explanation from your
description. I always discount the obvious first, then go from there. "If not
cocci" then what's next on the check-off list. The rolled oats and straight
hay will do him no harm as one continues to seek out the problem.
That simple change in the diet may well conquer the problem he's having.

You said he "tooted"....LOL.. that means he was beginning to bloat and
that's one thing that causes excruciating pain to a rabbit. i.e. grinding their
teeth. fuzzed-up, in the corner, not wanting to be bothered. Even before all
of the above, he may well have telegraphed his discomfort. It's negligible
but the small hairs around the lower part of his eyes and upper part of his
cheeks may have been slightly raised. His eyes may have not been totally
open as if he were squinting just a tad. Ear-carriage a little bit different.
Foot placement extended a little more than normal. Or the opposite.
"Subtle-Signs" a lot of folks miss.

ALL rabbits carry the cocci within their system. It's only when their immune
system is taxed/stressed do the occysts multiply and begin to cause problems.

Was the cage he was in...........brand spanking new?
If not, therein may well lie the problem. Cocci can remain dormant for long
periods of time, be ingested and start the "party" anew. We all do our best
to make sure the cages are cleaned and ready to go. But, there's always
the strong possibility we missed a micro-portion "somewhere" in the cage.

That's all it takes. The main thing is he's acting better.

Handling as many rabbits as I do on a daily basis, I'm "hyper-sensitive" to
any and all behaviors' that aren't the norm. Some can be extremely subtle.
While coccidiosis is always a strong possibility kept in the back of one's mind.

 

[Bad Habit]

Well, he'll be getting the cocci medication tonight regardless. I am of the "better safe than sorry" crew, and even thought I don't automatically jump to cocci, it is a possibility, knowing that the 2 growouts had cysts on their livers(I've never seen a cyst on any of the livers in my herd).

More tummy rubs today, and I'll probably get him out and chase him around again(yesterday he didn't want to move, so I was using a broom to nudge at him until he'd get mad and move away). I honestly don't care WHAT he has, I just want him to feel better. He looked so miserable yesterday that I was ready to cull him, just because he was so unhappy and in so much pain. <br /><br /> -- Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:28 pm -- <br /><br /> Taco took a turn for the worse during the night. I gave him more simethicone and syringe fed him some warm water. If he's not better in an hour or two, I will be culling him. Will his meat be safe or will the simethicone have tainted it?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Oh no! So sorry to hear he had a turn for the worse after his improvement yesterday.

Simethicone is used for infants that have gas, so I wouldn't worry about eating the meat.

Be sure to post your findings after you open him up.

Sorry for the loss, Bad habit.

 

[Bad Habit]

Please tell me if these photos aren't visible - I posted them to facebook as "only me" so hopefully it works.

Taco right before the deed. he hardly moved, which is why I had no issues using the litter pan.

When I took him out, he would get stiff and quiver all over, I don't know if this was because of stress/pain, or a symptom of the actual illness.

Intestines appeared swollen, were full of liquid and/or air. Occasionally formed poos were visible, but not many at all.

Large air bubble, everything around it was liquid.

Bladder was FULL. Never seen one that full before. Very reddish liquid as well. Also visible in this photo are the stomach - very noisy and gurgly. At one point I asked it to please stop, as the noise was creeping me out. And either a lot of fat, or a lot of pus in the stomach cavity. I've butchered some fat rabbits before, but have never seen fat like that - I discarded the carcass because of this.

Impacted bowels, I believe. there was about 3 inches of formed and solid blocks of poop in a row at this point. Very large and hard poops.

Other side of the impaction. There was some green bile coming from somewhere, it was almost a neon shade.

*at this point I accidentally closed the tab instead of switching to another tab. I just wanted to tell people of my Christmas miracle - the text returned when I reopened the tab!!*

Liver. Gall bladder seemed enlarged. The liver itself seemed a darker red than I am used to seeing, on the edges.

Did have this white spotting to it, which was very odd. I assume this was where the green bile originated from.

And then this white spot on the other side of the liver. There was also a small patch on the same lobe on the edge, that I actually didn't notice until going over the photos.

I also noticed a lot more mucus/slime while going through, however I don't often go through the intestines this closely - I just look for any major issues and if I find none, out and into the bucket. It may be a normal amount of slime for what I was doing. Also the kidneys/heart/liver all looked normal, so I didn't bother photographing them(I have to leave for christmas dinner in about 20 mins...)

Thoughts?

 

[MaggieJ]

Sorry you had to euthanize Taco, Bad Habit, but it sounds like you did the best thing for him.

To me, his liver looked not quite right. It is sort of mottled instead of a solid dark colour. In the last picture, at the top, there are what could be a few cocci nodules under the surface of the liver. It could just be reflection from the flash... It's hard to tell for sure. But I don't think the liver was the main problem. The gassy intestines and the blockage were likely the main cause of his distress.

 

[grumpy]

Don't know....but in relationship to the size of your hand, that liver looks to
be huge. Is it mottled in color and texture?

What was the blockage made of? Hair?....what?

 

[Zass]

I wonder if that liver appearance is what ketosis looks like when it's first setting in, since he hadn't been eating? I'm not sure how long it takes to get the pale appearance of a fatty liver, or what the transitional states look like.
:?

The blockage could have been the cause of the problem, or the result...but that green stuff in his guts looks pretty bad... like maybe something was beginning to rupture? There is a pic of a bloated rabbit with a ruptured stomach on medirabbit, lots of green stuff everywhere...
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_disease ... /bloat.htm

Even before all of the above, he may well have telegraphed his discomfort. It's negligible
but the small hairs around the lower part of his eyes and upper part of his
cheeks may have been slightly raised. His eyes may have not been totally
open as if he were squinting just a tad. Ear-carriage a little bit different.
Foot placement extended a little more than normal. Or the opposite.
"Subtle-Signs" a lot of folks miss.

This is useful information Grumpy, thanks for mentioning it!
Since rabbits tend to hide their illnesses, it's way too easy for us to miss the signs until it's too late for treatment to be effective.

 

[ladysown]

when the weather switches around it can throw rabbits off. I've been expecting genetically predisposed kits to get ill this week as we've gone from cold to RAIN. and voila.. culled two kits this morning due to gut issues EXACTLY like what you've experienced Bad Habit.

blame the weather. blame the genetics.
some rabbits react before the weather change, other rabbits during, very few after the fact.

I've learned not to fight to save them. I breed against it and don't lose as many as I used to (knock on wood).

Is there an illness factor to it? I don't know.
I DO KNOW that i can put one line of rabbits in cages that gas gut kits have been in and they won't get ill.. not a one. and other buns can be in the most protected of my cages and get ill just by the wind switching direction.. whereas every other rabbit is FINE in those cages Including the guinea pigs.

So I blame genetics and the weather. take one or the other out of the equation and nothing gets ill.

talking to older timers and they say the same thing... it's weather and lines of rabbits.. breed against it and move forward.

 

[Bad Habit]

Sorry you had to euthanize Taco, Bad Habit, but it sounds like you did the best thing for him.

To me, his liver looked not quite right. It is sort of mottled instead of a solid dark colour. In the last picture, at the top, there are what could be a few cocci nodules under the surface of the liver. It could just be reflection from the flash... It's hard to tell for sure. But I don't think the liver was the main problem. The gassy intestines and the blockage were likely the main cause of his distress.

I think what you're talking about is the same white mottled stuff that's already pictured. The overall pink/red mottled look did not show up in person. Because my area is quite busy at this time of year, I had to do him in the shed with the door closed, as I didn't want anyone peeking over the fence seeing me cut open a rabbit and take photos

Don't know....but in relationship to the size of your hand, that liver looks to
be huge. Is it mottled in color and texture?

What was the blockage made of? Hair?....what?

I have quite small hands, so the look may be deceiving. It didn't look oversized to me, about on key with the other almost 6mths old I did - about 4" x 4", roughly?

I didn't think to actually cut into the blockage and biopsy it. I just found it, pushed on it and looked through the intestine. It seemed like just hard hard poop.

I wonder if that liver appearance is what ketosis looks like when it's first setting in, since he hadn't been eating? I'm not sure how long it takes to get the pale appearance of a fatty liver, or what the transitional states look like.
:?

The blockage could have been the cause of the problem, or the result...but that green stuff in his guts looks pretty bad... like maybe something was beginning to rupture? There is a pic of a bloated rabbit with a ruptured stomach on medirabbit, lots of green stuff everywhere...
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_disease ... /bloat.htm

I'm not sure what ketosis really is. I think the green slime was from the gall bladder... I wasn't the most gentle in removing the liver, as I just wanted to be done at that point.

I'm rather curious about the bladder not emptying, though. Like maybe he was having issues with that, which caused the not eating, which caused the GI Stasis, which caused the appearance of a blockage, and the gas buildup. I mean, this was a GIANT bladder, compared to what I've seen. Probably close to the size of a golf ball.

 

[Zass]

Then, when I put him back in his cage, he drank an entire dish of water

I remember you saying this too.

Excessive thirst is a side effect of...well...a lot of things. Since his system was already not working correctly when he drank all that. It's hard to say if the overfull bladder was a cause or effect. :?

I think the green slime was from the gall bladder... I wasn't the most gentle in removing the liver, as I just wanted to be done at that point.

Oops. The picture of the liver shows an intact and very full gall bladder, so I'd assumed it wasn't gall.

 

[ladysown]

having a very full gut of gas makes it more difficult for bunnies to get into position to pee well.

I've seen this with rabbits with gut issues. redness I think comes from the strain and pain of a belly a gas (but am not sure).
the full bladder is due to thirst/hunger and needing to do something when feeling even a bit of relief.

 

[Bad Habit]

Yeah, I figured it was gall goo, since I basically ripped the liver connections out. First time going inside a rabbit without skinning/beheading first, so I was a little unnerved. It might have been from something else, though, I just assumed it was gall goo.

I don't know that I'd consider drinking that dish of water to be "excess thirst" since he'd hardly drank anything in 2 days at that point. I wouldn't count it as a symptom, myself, since he wasn't eating/drinking, and it was directly after having a tummy rub trying to get things going(and passing some major gas). I figure he passed the gas, felt a little better and drank because he was thirsty/hungry from not feeling well.

I didn't think of that dish of water, nor that he would have issues peeing since he was feeling poorly.

 

[JenerationX]

I'm sorry he didn't make it.