SURPRISE!!! Torts in a Argente Brun litter, many questions

[dobergoat]

Hi

So I've been breeding my Argente Bruns for a few years now. I quickly got alot of lilac's and since they had great type I was playing with those as well ( people are calling them Argente Lilac now). So I've breed Brun's and lilacs together a few times. Now I'm getting chocolate tort that silver out like a Argente brun, and just go my first lilac tort. Waiting to see if he silvers, looks like it so far.

I've been careful to keep the inbreeding co-efficient less the 25% but the litter with the lilac tort has a 50% inbreeding co-efficient.

I guess my question is is this a bad thing? getting the tort's out of the brun lines? how/why is this happening?

I've been looking for some new Brun lines but I'm having problems getting them to me. I feel like my Brun's are excellent for my management style ( colony) but I would like Brun's....Is there a name for the this colour varient somewhere out there?

thanks

 

[Bad Habit]

Bruns are chocolate with the silvering gene, right?

Just means that some of your original stock was Ee instead of EE and it's just chance and your careful record keeping that have prevented it from showing up in the past. That e would have started with an outcross at some point that's probably long off the pedigree.

I doubt they're showable(though you could show pictures here )

I'm not sure where Lunenburg is, so I don't know if I should suggest my go-to transporter who goes to NY shows often.

 

[Dood]

Only blacks, chocolates and fawns are recognized colours (not sure if blue is COD) so producing lilacs and torts is pointless and many breeders might be angry if their Champs start producing them I know I would be and I would seriously question the accuracy of their pedigrees.

 

[akane]

Someone threw something else in there. The lack of silvering is very bad. You should aggressively remove anything that doesn't silver from your lines you want to show or sell for show breeding stock. Argente colors need strong silvering so even one with 1 silver gene that gets some light hairs is not enough. They should turn nearly a full dilute from their base color. Grey champagnes from a black base and yellowish orange cremes from what would otherwise be red. Someone might find the culls interesting for another program but if you aren't seriously developing argente lilacs they serve no purpose except to play around for fun in your brun lines. I would find the lilacs less of an issue but people still will not be happy with lilac offspring when trying to get proper bruns. The breed is divided by colors so a brun with a brun should produce brun with full silvering and nothing else. Same for champagne, creme, bleu, and st. hubert (chestnut version of argente not bred purposely for in the US) If you want to keep the lilac and work with it you will have to warn buyers of your bruns that they may carry dilute for lilacs. Tort is another major problem. They are pretty. I had a silvered black tort from my creme and champagne crossing for meat rabbits. They might be fun to work with or even get approved as a new color in some distant future but people will not be happy to see them pop out of their bruns.

 

[dobergoat]

I'm 40 minutes from Messena NY and I often go there to pick up packages and show in NY. But no one seems to be selling brun's or when they are I can't get transport, so if you know someone

Yes they are chocolate with silvering. So the Ee, how does this work? sorry I've only had brun's and lilac so never really looked at colour genetic. Always been pretty easy

How do I go back to not having Ee's. The litter in question was a brun doe ( first litter) and a lilac buck(1st litter) brother/sister from different litters 50% inbreeding co-efficient. Nice complimentary type but this is not cool. One of my brun bucks also threw a tort in a litter recently. But never had one the last 8 litters from him, the doe has never had a tort in the last 2 years either. So how do I figure out who carries the Ee?

These are not Champagnes. They are Argente Brun's, different breed I believe some breeders are working on Argente Lilac's but I think they want to finish with the Brun's first and are planning to list lilac's as a colour. I always disclose the whole litter and what they carry to people buying so they are aware and can make their own choice. This is the first time I've had torts appear after 4 years of breeding my Bruns. The reason I'm asking is because I need to figure out what's happening.

I mainly raise them for meat and will be showing( have taken them to a few to get opinions).

My original pedigree's go back to Lindale rabbitry where the Brun's were develop. I keep very tight records. I don't personally know what was bred in before but on my pedigree's the 3rd generation was Lindale and all brun's and some champagnes/brun carriers when the breed was being developed. <br /><br /> __________ Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:09 am __________ <br /><br /> The kits are only 7 weeks so they are too young to silver, but all have the white spot on their forehead. I feel they will silver.

Unfortunaly I started with Brun stock that carried the dilution gene from the get go. I had one my first breeding.

 

[Dood]

The tort is likely coming for a crossing to a creme d'Argent since they carry two of the non-extension/tort genes

ANY rabbit that has produced a tort must carry the gene so the dam and buck of this litter have it and there is a 50% chance the Brun and lilac littermates of the tort carry it.

If you are serious about removing it you cannot breed any carriers so this buck and doe must be removed from the gene pool. The sibling of this pair have a 50% chance of having it and one of their parents must also have the gene.

You must test breed all the relatives (parents, siblings, offspring) that youve kept to see if they are non-extension/tort carriers and remove them from you breeding program. I'd keep a tort buck and tort doe to test breed to, if they ever produce a tort the non tort parent is a carrier.

 

[dobergoat]

Thanks Dood

If I had access to any other brun's I would likely cull the carriers, but I don't and after working with them for this long I kinda like them. Sadly the breeder I bought from alot of people have her lines, so I guess there's going to be alot of suprise torts when the start line breeding them....

Okay so I've labelled the 4 adults as being tort carriers. There some of my favourites and best breeders so I will just keep them seporate and labeled. They shall be my tort carrier meat line Are these the same as Saint Hubert Argente's?
I'll see what happens. When I first got my lilac in the litter I was told to cull. I did, but when I got more I couldn't call. I kept them and now people are working on them ( they are awesome, grow faster, bigger cute as anything) just a side thing. I'm all the way in eastern ontario so I don't sell alot of breeders.

And I labeled the 2 siblings from the one litter and the 4 from the other litter.

Now if the one brun or lilac buck breed my other does and they have never had tort does that mean that those kits potentially carry tort as well? So those bucks are Ee's. And the cross would be EExEe so the kits have a 50% chance of having e and I should test breed them to one of the ee's or can I breed them back to the Ee bucks? I guess the tort buck would be better since EeXee I would get all ee's if the doe is a carrier right which would all be culls.

 

[Dood]

Now if the one brun or lilac buck breed my other does and they have never had tort does that mean that those kits potentially carry tort as well?

Yes

So those bucks are Ee's.

Yes

And the cross would be EExEe so the kits have a 50% chance of having e and I should test breed them to one of the ee's or can I breed them back to the Ee bucks?

Yes

I guess the tort buck would be better since EeXee I would get all ee's if the doe is a carrier right which would all be culls.

and yes

 

[dobergoat]

YAY I feel like I just aced a test!!! GO me. Now to put it all into play! <br /><br /> __________ Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:42 am __________ <br /><br /> Wait. I have a lonely rex buck who is a tort. Got him from another breeders rabbits that were all culled.

So I could breed him to all the adult does now and cull the kits. But he is a rex so would I get rex's from that breeding? just wondering, or only if my does carry rex do you get rex kits?

 

[Dood]

Rex is recessive so they'd have normal fur, maybe a bit more density, and carry the rex gene. Breeding the carriers togeather or to their rex father should produce 25% to 50% rex kits, respectively, but they won't be show quality as they will not have the modifiers that make quality rex due to their non rex parent

 

[dobergoat]

What are the modifiers?

Sorry I want to get into Rex's so totally wondering, presently looking for a breeding trio
( I run a meat CSA and rabbit is on the menu, so I need lots of meaties)

 

[Dood]

"Modifiers" is just the term used when a cut and dry, dominant/recessive effect is not going on.

Most are likely repeated sections of the DNA to enhance colour or texture or density :shrug:

 

[dobergoat]

LOL okay, so it's basically what makes the breed that breed.