Super-steel Champagne??? More likely than you think

[JessiL]

Hello, everyone!

So, I got rather unexpected results from breeding a Champagne d'Argent doe to a Creme d'Argent buck (all part of my scheme to make Argent St. Hubert buns.. mwa-ha-ha-ha), and I'd like to consult with the group as to what might have happened.

Ok, from how I understand it, the genes that SHOULD be in play are:
Champagne: aa EE WW sisi
Creme: AA ee ww sisi

So, every cross should be Aa Ee Ww sisi, leading to chestnut babies that silver up nicely.

What I received instead were 5 non-visual agouti babies (no pale agouti markings on belly or ear linings at a very early age), but instead something that looks rather more like black gold-tipped steels!



After much hemming and hawing, the best I could come up with is that my Champagne is likely:
aa EsEs WW sisi

She is from a long line of well-reputed pure Champagnes that breed true to each other. When I've crossed them with American Blues in the past, I've seen 100% black with weak silvering. Being EsEs would NOT be incompatible with that result (assuming all of my Am. Blues are aa, though they may as well have Es floating around).

Dood, Zass, et al., what do you think? I think that no matter what I'll repeat the cross. If the Champ is indeed EsE (or Ese), then a chestnut should pop up in another litter or two.

Thanks, Jessi

 

[Zass]

Look like steels to me.

Dood had a EsEs cali buck, and my pedigreed silverfox were all EsEs.

So yeah, EsEs is possible.

A_ Ese kits really like to hide their steel ticking, often waiting until much longer than most to show it. At least your kits ARE showing it.

But...if your champ is EsEs or Ese, and your cream must ee...You'll never see chestnuts from them!!!

Your only hope is for your champ to be EsE :clover:

 

[Nyctra]

Yeahhh, she probably is EsEs...no reason not to hold out hope she's actually EsE though.

 

[akane]

You will likely have to breed siblings or back to creme to get st. hubert and get rid of the steel. If all the champagnes of the line look the same they are probably all genetically identical with 2 homozygous (same) copies of each gene pair. How old did you grow your crosses out to? If you got such weak silvering in your crosses then I wonder if your champagne is a proper si3si3 or carries the lower silvering genes. Usually Sisi3 still silvers quite a bit. I made far more interesting things than st huberts out of mine. I loved my silvered tort line

These blacks are SIsi3 (champagne x chocolate rex)

A st. hubert partially silvered

 

[JessiL]

Cool pics, Akane!

These kits are still just wee ones, less than three weeks old, so they are not yet silvering. All the ticking you see is likely the steel effect. They are all destined for the freezer, but I'll try to hold back one or two to about 16 weeks to get better quality fur. In the summer, when I can just stash them in rabbit tractors where most of their feed is free, I can afford to keep an extra mouth or two around for a bit.

Yes, 5 out of 5 being steel likely indicates that mom is EsEs, but the statistician in me wants to see one more litter before making the call. I think this will unfortunately end my St. Hubert experiment. I was already a bit annoyed to have three genes to worry about (I'd want to end up with clean-breeding lines, so everything would have to be AA EE WW), and throwing in a fourth allele is just too much. At least it wouldn't be able to hide with A around, but still.

FYI, here's a sample of the Champagne/American Blue crosses just before harvest. You can see that they do start weakly silvering. It makes actually a rather nice pelt, like some sort of fox pattern or something.