stopped labor, with more kits inside...

[Zinnia]

I sold a doe to a friend. The doe is about a 18 months old. When she was with me, she kindled a litter of 8, no problem... nursed them all, healthy, etc.

My friend bred the doe, (French Angora) and on her due date, today, she found one kit. I believe she said she thought that was it, brought the nest inside and then thought... what if there's more coming, so brought the nest back out again. Hours passed after returning the nest and no more babies came. She felt the doe's stomach and detected movement. She took the doe to the vet, because she believed the doe's vent to be closed.

Vet gave the doe Oxytocin, with no result. They did a c-section and revived 3 kits.

I'm trying to think of what I would have done if I was faced with this!

What makes a doe stall? Was it moving the nest box (I didn't ask how long she had it away)? Is this common? Was there anything different that could have been done?

The doe was spayed, because the vet said this would happen again... Doe is recovering.

I just don't know what to think. I want to know what others would have done. And, I hope I am never faced with this problem, but would love to know what to do without surgery.

Thanks,
Zinnia

 

[Sagebrush]

I would have tried her with a buck, to get the contractions going again. IF that didn't work then I would have gone with lavender to get them all out.

 

[Zinnia]

How DOES one tell if the vent is "closed"? If the vent was really closed, could she have done anything else? Would the remaining kits have dissolved and passed eventually? It seems to me that it would be natural and relatively safe to let it be....am I wrong? I am not judging her, but I know I would have done something different. Not sure what, but I guess I thought I'd better educate myself on the topic. She is happy with her decision, so I am happy for her, but I hope there are other successful options that I would have been more comfortable with, if case I ever see this in my herd.

 

[Dood]

How DOES one tell if the vent is "closed"?

I've never heard of this condition.

The "vent" is the outer vaginal tube and cannot be sealed shut or "closed"

A rabbits cervix is small and very rubbery rather than cartilaginous and I dont see how it could obstruct a kit either.

I've had dwarf rabbits with stuck kits take 4 days to expel fetuses without veterinary intervention

I would have let her be with her kit, tried to stimulate oxytocin by plucking belly fur and if still no kits tried her with a buck

 

[Zass]

The kits were only delayed a few hours before she decided to get veterinary intervention?

I thought it was commonly known that does sometimes stop mid labor, especially if they are bothered by an overly anxious owner.
I also feel the vet's methods were pretty heavy handed. It almost gives the impression that the vet didn't really want to bother with more patient measures. I hope the doe survives. :luck:

 

[Zinnia]

Thank you all for the sage advice. What a relief to hear it.

I did advise her to rub the belly and use herbs... That's what I would have done. But, I wouldn't have taken the nest box away in the first place. And, I really think the doe stalled because she was interrupted. There's no way I can tell my friend this. She is very sensitive and well-meaning. I think it would crush her to think she caused any complication. But, I do hope I can gently inform her that she has other options if ever this happens to her other doe.

It is a shame, as this is a doe that I hoped to get a kit back from. There are 4 live kits right now. I hope they do well, since they are her last. <br /><br /> -- Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:16 pm -- <br /><br />

How DOES one tell if the vent is "closed"?

I've never heard of this condition.

The "vent" is the outer vaginal tube and cannot be sealed shut or "closed"

A rabbits cervix is small and very rubbery rather than cartilaginous and I dont see how it could obstruct a kit either.

I've had dwarf rabbits with stuck kits take 4 days to expel fetuses without veterinary intervention

I would have let her be with her kit, tried to stimulate oxytocin by plucking belly fur and if still no kits tried her with a buck

Well, thank you for clearing that up! I didn't know what to make of what the vet told her. I googled it and found nothing.

 

[akane]

It's possible the vet wanted the chance to spay the doe along with not knowing a whole lot about rabbit reproduction. I've had vets flat out lie to me when they didn't agree with me. I got tired of lying to the vet we were using to prevent them from lying to or harassing me so we had to swap vets. Then we moved and now I have to search out a new vet.

Rabbits can sometimes take a day or less commonly more to push out kits. Oxytocin and time probably would have been all she needed. There is steadily increasing risk of the kits being born dead the longer it takes so it's possible it saved the litter but most people would like to still have their breeding doe (and bank account) intact.

 

[Zinnia]

Yep. I'm afraid to ask her how much this whole ordeal cost her. I can see that the vet took advantage, and it's a shame. Yes, the doe, intact would have been more valuable than the kits. But, I believe those kits would have come out alive if left alone, or perhaps with a little encouragement since there was interruption. Sigh... Really hoping the kits make it.

 

[Zass]

A pro biotic like Benebac would be helpful if she's been prescribed a broad spectrum antibiotic, or received antibiotic shots. Make sure she knows that appetite loss after surgery is normal for other animals, but will kill rabbits. They have to keep eating.

 

[Zinnia]

Thank you for that advice. I haven't heard if she 's been prescribed anything, but I'd be willing to bet that's the case. Haven't heard back from her tonight, so I hope everything's OK. I'll make an update when I know.

 

[grumpy]

Please keep in mind that I raise commercially. So consequently my opinions
will be based to that area of expertise. No insults nor hurt feelings are
intended.

First of all: The vet's a crook!! I shudder to think what this poor woman
had to spend on her rabbit. Spaying the rabbit....ruined the rabbit. IMHO.
It's a "non-producer"...reduced to pet-only status for the rest of its days.
This may be all well and good "IF" that was/now is, the owners' intent.
I realize that's a "Hard-Line" outlook to have, but quite realistic.

Does are curious critters with each one having a distinctive and unique
personality. Some does..."take their time" having a litter. While others
spit them puppies out like you and I would watermelon seeds. Again, no two
are exactly the same. I've got one or two does that are quite nonchalant
about the whole process. They're laid-back gals that never seem to get in
a hurry.............over anything.

Again, I reiterate that most difficulties a rabbit-Mama encounters comes
not from Mother Nature but from their caretaker. Left alone and un-bothered
999 out of a thousand do just fine. All they need is just a little peace and quiet.

Kudos to the Lady for having such a thoughtful and caring nature. She may
have jumped the gun a little too hastily.

Grumpy.

 

[Dood]

It's possible the vet wanted the chance to spay the doe along with not knowing a whole lot about rabbit reproduction. I've had vets flat out lie to me when they didn't agree with me. I got tired of lying to the vet we were using to prevent them from lying to or harassing me so we had to swap vets. Then we moved and now I have to search out a new vet.

I've met quite a few vets with "God complexes" and/or HUGE egos, that, along with idiot owners, is why I quit the veterinary technician profession after 9 years

I agree with Grumpy that the vet was a crook and why it is so important to have a vet who you have a good rappor with, and preferably specializes in your pets species, BEFORE an emergency - I have 3 vets on speed dial to cover our livestock, warm blooded pets and cold blooded pets, we use to have a 4th just for the horses

I agree that given peace and quite and a bit of time the doe would have done fine

PS I've never had a doe die during or soon after kindling or even be in significant stress due to stuck kits so going to the vet for help would not have even entered my mind :shrug:

 

[cmfarm]

One of my daughters mice recently had babies and it seemed to take forever for her to have them. She has large litters and was huge so I new she was going to have a lot. I went and checked on her around 10 and she had one baby. Then I checked around 12 and still just the one. So I left her alone and checked again around 3:30 and she only had 2. I checked again around 9 and there where only 3 or 4. Then during the night she had the rest (a litter of 12). I was very surprised she took so long because they usually have them all within an hour or 2. I did get a little worried about her, but since she was still having more I figured she was just taking her time.

 

[Dood]

I found with my mice that ones that had them too quickly were prone to prolapsed uterusus (?uteri?) or haemorrhaging

 

[Zinnia]

Still haven't heard anything back and that worries me.

She is very well-meaning and educates herself on her rabbits. But, she is new at it. And, I can see how she would have been anxious and taken the vet's advice even against the little voice inside her. It's just maddening that her vet would take advantage.

My own rabbit experience is limited to about a dozen litters. They either had all the kits out before I ever got there in the morning, or I'd come out just an hour after seeing nothing to a full litter of 9 kits. Only a couple times did I see one or a few, but did not disturb her and came back to more a couple hours later.

She owns another doe from me, who also successfully kindled previously (11 kits). This doe is also due now, but mat not have taken. I'm really feeling a responsibility to let her know that there was a better way, so she never has to go through this again, for her sake and the rabbit's. Now to gently let her know....

Thank you all so much for your advice!

 

[MaggieJ]

Zinnia, you can always tell her that because of this very unfortunate situation, that you felt the need to ask the advice of RT members. Then pass along the information you feel would be helpful. There is no need for either of you to beat yourselves up over this. Your friend may have jumped the gun but she did so out of a sense of responsibility and caring and that is nothing to be ashamed of. She was badly advised by a professional who sounds either dishonest or ignorant. A lot of vets know very little about rabbits.

 

[Zinnia]

Just got word that everyone is well... kits and doe. And, that she is very happy with the vet... so... hmmm. I did gently let her know there are other choices for the future. She had taken her other doe to the vet because she was worried this would happen to her, too... Vet said she's not pregnant, she didn't take... sigh...

 

[Zass]

Just got word that everyone is well... kits and doe. And, that she is very happy with the vet... so... hmmm. I did gently let her know there are other choices for the future. She had taken her other doe to the vet because she was worried this would happen to her, too... Vet said she's not pregnant, she didn't take... sigh...

:shock: She was ready to risk putting another doe through invasive and potentially life threatening surgery for no particular reason??? Does she realize that a c-section is more likely to kill her does than retained fetuses would be???

 

[Dood]

Tell your friend to put a nest box in ... just in case

Unless the vet did an ultrasound or X-rays to confirm she isn't pregnant.

Re-breeding her won't effect any fetuses if she is pregnant and can help stimulate kindling.

 

[Zinnia]

Tell your friend to put a nest box in ... just in case

Unless the vet did an ultrasound or X-rays to confirm she isn't pregnant.

Re-breeding her won't effect any fetuses if she is pregnant and can help stimulate kindling.

He palpated, and yeah... he admitted he didn't know much about rabbits. So, a nest box would be smart.