CochinBrahmaLover
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So if a rabbit is completely black, no signs of ticking anywhere, but is genetically a steel, it's aa_Ese, yeah? What about the other... Letters? Are they all unknown?
Steel rabbit genetics
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It could be A_ Es_ (masked agouti steel, looks identical to self)
Or aa Es_(self with a hidden copy of steel, in which case it's just a matter of steel not really being able to affect a self coat, so you can't see it.)
Good luck telling the two apart.
The easiest way is to test breed with an agouti who has been test bred proven not to carry self, if you can find one.
Anyway, if it's a visually black based steel it's going to be A_(or aa) B_ __ D_ Es_ for sure
Since you can see that it is not dilute or chocolate.
I'm pretty convinced that self-looking agouti steels can be produced with EsEs, EsE, Esej and Ese.
Or aa Es_(self with a hidden copy of steel, in which case it's just a matter of steel not really being able to affect a self coat, so you can't see it.)
Good luck telling the two apart.
The easiest way is to test breed with an agouti who has been test bred proven not to carry self, if you can find one.
Anyway, if it's a visually black based steel it's going to be A_(or aa) B_ __ D_ Es_ for sure
Since you can see that it is not dilute or chocolate.
I'm pretty convinced that self-looking agouti steels can be produced with EsEs, EsE, Esej and Ese.
:yeahthat:
I would add that on the C-locus a black looking rabbit can be
C_ -----Full colour
cchd_ ----- self chinchilla
cchl cchl ----- seal
But cannot be
cchl_ ----- sable
ch_ ----- himilayan
cc ----- REW
I would add that on the C-locus a black looking rabbit can be
C_ -----Full colour
cchd_ ----- self chinchilla
cchl cchl ----- seal
But cannot be
cchl_ ----- sable
ch_ ----- himilayan
cc ----- REW
skysthelimit
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Let's just throw Ed in the picture, that's been coming up a lot in Angora posts on FB.
Orchid
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I was about to post a topic on steel, but I figured I would ask here since it is already going - I'm still trying to understand genetics.
Are there any hints that a rabbit is steel or the solid black version... (Like different eye color for example.) What should you look for? I am looking into purchasing my foundation stock of SF and I am trying to figure out if you can tell before hand. (Sorry if I show my inexperience, this is new for me)
And then to test for steel you would breed the rabbit to an agouti rabbit... and what would the babies look like? I am a bit confusled! But trying to learn
And slightly off topic, to test for chin genes you can breed to any REW correct?
Are there any hints that a rabbit is steel or the solid black version... (Like different eye color for example.) What should you look for? I am looking into purchasing my foundation stock of SF and I am trying to figure out if you can tell before hand. (Sorry if I show my inexperience, this is new for me)
And then to test for steel you would breed the rabbit to an agouti rabbit... and what would the babies look like? I am a bit confusled! But trying to learn
And slightly off topic, to test for chin genes you can breed to any REW correct?
Yeah, you can test for chin by breeding to rew. An agouti based rew would be best, as a self chin kits are harder to visually identify.
As for the steel carrying silver fox...no. There is absolutely no way to visually distinguish a self who carries steel.
Steel doesn't affect a self coat at all so a genetic self will never give away that it's carrying steel without test breeding.
Sometimes a masked agouti steel will have a coat that looks a bit off or shows faint ticking,
But, just as often there is no visual difference between a genetic self and a masked agouti steel.
If there was...steel wouldn't even be considered a problem.
I've seen webpages written by breeders who claim that they can visually identify their super steels. They also usually claim that the only way a rabbit can be a masked steel is with a A_ EsEs genotype. Steel doesn't like following those rules. :lol:
If you are getting pedigreed rabbits in central Pennsylvania...you might as well just expect them to be steel or super steel carriers. The breeders will not even be likely know that the lines carry those genes if they never crossed their stock to produce meat mutts.
And even if they did, so many other meat breeds carry steel, they may just assume it's coming from the rabbit they crossed it to.
I only stumbled across the fact that my pedigreed stock were super steels because I was breeding to very clean opals, and I only stumbled across how widespread it was because I had rabbits brought in from other states. It's not just me though. I've seen people posting their silverfox cross kits all over the place. Steel genes are common to the breed.
It's not seen as much of a problem by breeders, since they can breed black self to black self and get only black kits.
Why worry about genes you will never see?
It was a problem for me only because it threw a wrench into my designer mutt project.
I've only ever seen one case where a pedigreed silver fox was a masked agouti steel and produced visually steel colored kits when bred to another pedigreed silver fox, and it wasn't one of mine or even in this state.
As for the steel carrying silver fox...no. There is absolutely no way to visually distinguish a self who carries steel.
Steel doesn't affect a self coat at all so a genetic self will never give away that it's carrying steel without test breeding.
Sometimes a masked agouti steel will have a coat that looks a bit off or shows faint ticking,
But, just as often there is no visual difference between a genetic self and a masked agouti steel.
If there was...steel wouldn't even be considered a problem.
I've seen webpages written by breeders who claim that they can visually identify their super steels. They also usually claim that the only way a rabbit can be a masked steel is with a A_ EsEs genotype. Steel doesn't like following those rules. :lol:
If you are getting pedigreed rabbits in central Pennsylvania...you might as well just expect them to be steel or super steel carriers. The breeders will not even be likely know that the lines carry those genes if they never crossed their stock to produce meat mutts.
And even if they did, so many other meat breeds carry steel, they may just assume it's coming from the rabbit they crossed it to.
I only stumbled across the fact that my pedigreed stock were super steels because I was breeding to very clean opals, and I only stumbled across how widespread it was because I had rabbits brought in from other states. It's not just me though. I've seen people posting their silverfox cross kits all over the place. Steel genes are common to the breed.
It's not seen as much of a problem by breeders, since they can breed black self to black self and get only black kits.
Why worry about genes you will never see?
It was a problem for me only because it threw a wrench into my designer mutt project.
I've only ever seen one case where a pedigreed silver fox was a masked agouti steel and produced visually steel colored kits when bred to another pedigreed silver fox, and it wasn't one of mine or even in this state.
I raise New Zealands. I have a self chin buck (all black) and only discovered this after breeding to one of my white does. I've since bred him to several other white "cc" does and have had similar results.
I have two black bucks. Prior to that, I'd just been breeding black to black. I knew one of my bucks should be carrying a dilute gene but was getting no greys/blues from my black does, bred him to a white daughter of his. Boom! There were my greys/blues. So, the younger of the bucks is the son of the older. His mother came from a different source and is no longer with us. So my conclusion is that she, too, was a self chin.
Where, when, and why she picked up the chin gene - I don't know. What I do know is that I've got a dozen gorgeous little chin rabbits out of several different does and a buck that meet New Zealand standards. I'll have to wait to see how they grow out and what they conform to as they mature.
Long answer to your question. Sorry. In my limited experience, I've only been able to determine a self chin by breeding to a REW doe.
I have two black bucks. Prior to that, I'd just been breeding black to black. I knew one of my bucks should be carrying a dilute gene but was getting no greys/blues from my black does, bred him to a white daughter of his. Boom! There were my greys/blues. So, the younger of the bucks is the son of the older. His mother came from a different source and is no longer with us. So my conclusion is that she, too, was a self chin.
Where, when, and why she picked up the chin gene - I don't know. What I do know is that I've got a dozen gorgeous little chin rabbits out of several different does and a buck that meet New Zealand standards. I'll have to wait to see how they grow out and what they conform to as they mature.
Long answer to your question. Sorry. In my limited experience, I've only been able to determine a self chin by breeding to a REW doe.
Orchid
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Thank you both so much, I am really trying to get great stock to begin with. It's sort of unnerving that there are so many hidden nasties.
Zass thanks so much for the heads up, I will be sourcing my stock from down here and crossing my fingers then...
I've been pulling my hair out wondering if I can prevent sneaky genes from the start *sigh*
Now I have a new question is it even possible to remove steel from your lines by testing every generation or so? I don't mind the challenge it will give me something to do and more meat in the long run...
Added : So I shouldn't worry about it? I was hoping to be able to get my ocd in there a bit, lol! I just sort of feel if it shouldn't be in there it shouldn't... but then again I am learning so maybe a bit in over my head before even starting lol
Zass thanks so much for the heads up, I will be sourcing my stock from down here and crossing my fingers then...
I've been pulling my hair out wondering if I can prevent sneaky genes from the start *sigh*
Now I have a new question
is it even possible to remove steel from your lines by testing every generation or so? I don't mind the challenge it will give me something to do and more meat in the long run...Added : So I shouldn't worry about it? I was hoping to be able to get my ocd in there a bit, lol!
I just sort of feel if it shouldn't be in there it shouldn't... but then again I am learning so maybe a bit in over my head before even starting lol
Orchid":36rkh862 said:Thank you both so much, I am really trying to get great stock to begin with. It's sort of unnerving that there are so many hidden nasties.
Zass thanks so much for the heads up, I will be sourcing my stock from down here and crossing my fingers then...
I've been pulling my hair out wondering if I can prevent sneaky genes from the start *sigh*
Now I have a new question
The only way I can think of to keep your genetics clean would be to start with clean stock (if you can find it) and do not out cross to other silverfox lines unless you find another breeder who test breeds and is careful about it .
If even one steel (or rew, non extension, or chinchilla, etc) carrier is introduced, 50% of their offspring will inherit the gene and you will never know which is which without test breeding each and every rabbit you intend to retain. It would mean keeping a small herd of rabbits just for test breeding.
My pedigreed silver fox (from show lines, from breeders in different states) were not just steel, they were genetic super steel. Meaning they carried two copies of the gene each, one copy inherited from each of their parents. When I look at all the names of the pedigrees...(that I saved copies of for reference) it shows me that many many rabbitrys have steel carrying silver fox lines.
So...you see. Most of the people howling about the purity of stock probably have impure stock themselves....and have just never test bred to turn up any recessives.
It would be easier not to worry about it, and eat any off colors that may turn up. Steel will not be a chief concern with that approach, since it's invisible on a genetic self and masked agouti steels do not seem to be common to the breed(yet).
The rews and pretty silvered torts I've seen pop up in some lines would be a greater concern.
Orchid":3fvg47ey said:Oh goodness sounds like a :canofworms:
Oh well, I guess I will find the best I can and work on it...
Yep
Show rabbits are judged by phenotype (what they look like) so invisible genes and recessives do not matter at all.
It's mostly breeders who are trying to ask more money for "heritage" silver fox that are most vocal about purity, but I've yet to see much proof that ANY line is genetically "pure".
skysthelimit
Well-known member
Zass":38g21oem said:The only way I can think of to keep your genetics clean would be to start with clean stock (if you can find it) and do not out cross to other silverfox lines unless you find another breeder who test breeds and is careful about it .
If even one steel (or rew, non extension, or chinchilla, etc) carrier is introduced, 50% of their offspring will inherit the gene and you will never know which is which without test breeding each and every rabbit you intend to retain. It would mean keeping a small herd of rabbits just for test breeding.
So...you see. Most of the people howling about the purity of stock probably have impure stock themselves....and have just never test bred to turn up any recessives.
It would be easier not to worry about it, and eat any off colors that may turn up. Steel will not be a chief concern with that approach, since it's invisible on a genetic self and masked agouti steels do not seem to be common to the breed(yet).
The rews and pretty silvered torts I've seen pop up in some lines would be a greater concern.
This is so true. If you aren't breeding any other color but self, you would never know. It has never really occurred to me to worry about steel in SF because it would never show, and would be extremely hard to get rid of, as they are not my main breed and would take up too much space and time to test breed them all.
Now if I started getting torts, I would just cull the whole herd.
As it stands, I've had people get blue eyes, but I have never had any born here. Where do they come from? Who knows, but recessives are forever. You can manage some, but never get rid of them all.
