Steel. Am I understanding this right?

[Zinnia]

I just posted about a kit that I need to figure out a color for... a little Sable, I think. Anyway, looking at the dam's pedigree, I see this...

GGParents: Steel and Lilac
GParent: Chocolate
Parent: Opal

Since the Steel gene is dominant over E, wouldn't all offspring from those rabbits be Es, too (with the exception of ee genotypes). And, since there are no ee genotypes in this example, wouldn't the Chocolate be a Chocolate with Es and the Opal then, be an Opal Steel? If so will the Steel only be cleared out with a Tort, Pearl, Cream, etc. (ee).

Thanks,
Zinnia

 

[Zass]

Because Es is dominant, it only takes one copy of the gene to "ruin" an agouti coat.
A_ Es E is the most common genotype for visual steel, so I'll use that.
If bred to a visual agouti say:
A_ E e You would get 50% rabbits that had Es(steel), and 50% kits that just didn't inherit the dominant Es gene and received the recessive E gene from the steel parent instead.
Possible combinations from the pairing:
A_ EsE (should look steel) A_ EE (agouti) A_ Ee (agouti) Aa_ Ese (may look either steel or self)


No visual agouti can be a steel, as just one copy of Es wreaks the banding, agouti marks and belly color. But...it might be harder to see the difference on a mature angora, making accurate kit color id really important.

I have seen blue steels mislabeled as poorly marked opals.

My FA's were tort's though, so honestly, I've never flipped over a mature agouti FA to see what it should look like on the belly.

 

[Zinnia]

Thanks. Since Millie's sire is a Fawn, I know she has to be Ee, because e is all he could give and she shows E (or Es), being Chestnut. She doesn't look Steel, but I think Ese would be more accurate based on her dam's lines, right? <br /><br /> __________ Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:05 pm __________ <br /><br /> Wait... I keep missing something you said... This would be true if the Steels up the line really didn't hide E to give instead of Es... as maybe they got the E, not the Es. I know what I'm saying, but I'm sure I'm being confusing! :x

 

[Zass]

Yes, you are :?
EsEs is super steel. All of a super steels kits will inherit Es, much like how all of a charlies kits will have the broken pattern.

In the same way, most visual steels only have one copy of the gene Es_ so only half of their offspring would inherit it.

Like breeding a broken to a solid , and getting 1/2 brokens and 1/2 solids.

Non extension colors aren't the only ones that can be used to identify and exclude steel, clean agouti colors work too.

 

[Zinnia]

That makes sense. I'll look through the pedigrees to see if I can get a better picture of what I've got..... after a good long sleep..... <br /><br /> __________ Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:18 pm __________ <br /><br />

Non extension colors aren't the only ones that can be used to identify and exclude steel, clean agouti colors work too.

But, that's the part I'm going to need to work on. I need to be sure I'm seeing a clean Agouti!

 

[Zass]

I've had to breed two generations away from my silverfox to get clean agouti colors out of them, because they were all self based super steels.
aa EsEs.

Why did I want that?

Eh...whim.

Anyway...
I bred does who were test bred steel free to my super steels to produce Es_ rabbits.
Their kits bred back to clean agouti's produced litters that I can pick the steel-free kits out of. This is such a litter, anyone with white inside the ears here didn't inherit steel, and will be A_ E_

 

[Zinnia]

Will the white inside the ears be a non-Steel for pretty-darn-sure a CLEAN Agouti? If so, I can see that I do have clean ones out there! <br /><br /> __________ Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:36 pm __________ <br /><br /> How not-white, though? Just need to be pure white... Can off-white be fine, or are you talking about darker than that?

 

[Zass]

Pure white as nestlings. Let me see if I can find a pic of them younger, you will be able to see it easily.

 

[Zinnia]

Mine are just over two weeks... still possible to tell, right?

__________ Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:43 pm __________

For example, is this Sable Chinchilla a Steel? She's from Millie and just over two weeks.
post251908.html#p251908

 

[Zass]

Here's one. The one labeled lilac might have steel. No idea, but he's bound for the dinner table anyway, as I'm only selecting from the steel-free kits. See their pretty white ears? They have white bellies to match.

Steel VS agouti is easiest to ID in the nestbox for this reason.

The kit in the other post is not a steel, as she has white inside her ears.

 

[Celice]

Zass! I want those kits!!!! soooo pretty!!

 

[Zinnia]

They really are gorgeous! The Lilac is so beautiful. Thank you so much for posting these! That helps so much. I can really see the difference in ear color.

 

[Zass]

As they get older it becomes harder to tell from just the ears, but a white belly, and underside of tail still gives it away.

__________ Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:58 pm __________

Zass! I want those kits!!!! soooo pretty!!

Thanks guys.
I've been working hard with another breeder on these lines.

The only long coated agoutis I know of are angoras, and the wool kinda hides the color...so I really wanted to see what agouti shades looked like on a silver fox style coat. Making progress...

 

[Zinnia]

White belly and underside of the tail for CLEAN Agouti, right?

 

[Zass]

White belly and underside of the tail for CLEAN Agouti, right?

By clean I mean steel-free...and yeah. That kit I just posted has no steel
A_ bb C_ dd E_, and will never throw steels when bred to a similarly marked clean agouti.

All I need are a few of those opals to be does to completely wipe the steel out of my meat mutt herd.
Like this guy, who can't have steel, because he's got a pretty white belly:

__________ Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:12 pm __________

You also have wideband in your herd though, right? That gene paired with rufus can also cover up the white parts of a rabbit, making them look reddish. I have little experience with that gene.

 

[JenerationX]

All I need are a few of those opals to be does to completely wipe the steel out of my meat mutt herd.
Like this guy, who can't have steel, because he's got a pretty white belly:

fftopic3: OMG.... that might be my favorite color ever. Also, are you slipping some kind of drug into their water to make them so mellow? Every time I see a pic of your adult rabbits, they look like they're impersonating a lap dog. :lol:

 

[Zass]

fftopic3: OMG.... that might be my favorite color ever. Also, are you slipping some kind of drug into their water to make them so mellow? Every time I see a pic of your adult rabbits, they look like they're impersonating a lap dog. :lol:

:lol:
It's no secret that I prefer easy going animals. Anyone skittish heads strait to the stew pot. :walkplank:

All are handled with my customary amount of respect, I guess, I try not to make them too uncomfortable or expose them to anything too terrifying so that they do not learn to fear handling.

I don't treat them like glass either. You don't want them to think they are the ones in control, but...it's also counterproductive to "dominate" a rabbit in any way that can cause fear.
Because aggression is almost always rooted in fear.

 

[Zinnia]

I love that last post, Zass. I've learned so much from you already.

Yes, I have ww and rufus in the herd here. I'm glad I have gained experience from that initial Steel, ww, high rufus buck. But, I'll be thankful to wipe out the effects from my herd. I formerly posted that he was Ee on the pedigree. I have discovered that he is Es, but also suspect that he MUST be EsE based this article and the fact that, bred with an ee, he produced NO ee types at all. All Agouti, but some truly Steel. http://www.raising-rabbits.com/steel-ra ... etics.html

 

[JenerationX]

DANGNABBIT... I hate when Chrome decides to eat my response instead of posting it.

Good point Zass. I think it's important to remember you're dealing with a prey animal rather than a predator that responds to dominance like a dog would. I used to work with a lot of "aggressive" horses and 99% of the time it wasn't aggression, it was an animal in a stall responding to fear by lashing out. They'll always choose flight first, then fight if they can't avoid whatever's pressuring them. I'd imagine a rabbit in a cage being grabbed at would feel the same way.

One of my instructors said "Don't ever move too quickly, but always move deliberately."

Zinnia, your little rabbit is adorable. I love those shaded ears!