Standard Rex and Satin Angora

[feraltydreaming]

*laughs* I know that I might be hunted down for comitting what is probably thought of as a sin for these two breeds, but I thought I would pose this idea regardless as I wish to learn more about body type and coat genetics. Given the nature of this post, I was not quite sure where to post it given the nature of the breeds in question and the nature of my questions, so please feel free to redict my post if needbe.

A friend of mine has Satin Angora rabbits. The two does are reds (one is a very smutty red) and the buck is a REW. I will likely be getting a Standard Rex doe soon. Given that the sizes and temperaments of these rabbits are similar and the unique qualities of each breed's coat, I am curious what might happen if they were crossed?

I know that the body types are different (they appear as such to me at least), but I am curious if I would end up with a Standard Rex body with a satinized coat or a Satin Angora body with a rex coat?...or would the body and/or coat end up somewhere in between regardless of how many generations were bred from this cross? Would I be more likely to end up with neither coat type but, instead, a rabbit whose body was just an odd mix of both breeds and had a coat that was somewhere in between short and long-haired?

As I said, I am wanting to learn about body type and coat type genetics moreso. However, these rabbits would be intended for meat production and perhaps pelt tanning (if such would be possible with my vision impairment...still to be determined), so I do have a few goals in mind.

If this cross would be a viable cross, are there any considerations that I would need to keep in mind to work more towards one body and/or coat type over the other? Again, if a viable cross, would the differences in fur/wool condition demands (different protein requirements, for example) be a factor right away or would it take a few generations to see an influence? Would coat density be affected right away or would it probably take several generations?

I have attempted quite a bit of research on this matter, but I have yet to find anyone who has done this cross. So far, I have only seen Standard Rex or MiniRex being crossed with Satins or MiniSatins.

No worries to the aficionados of both breeds (I like them both for different reasons), I have not tried this cross yet...just curious for now *laughs*.

Respectfully,
RW

 

[caroline]

the Rex, Angora & satin are all coat variations that are the result of DIFFERENT double recessive genes
sasa for satin fur
rr Rex fur
ll angora fur

For this reason, if you cross the "sasa ll TT" with the "SASA LL rr"
in the first generation you will get all normal furred rabbits
no satin
no angora
no rex

SAsa Ll Rr

you will have to cross those offspring with each other to get the satin/angora/rex combo. And even then you will only get it in SOME of this offspring, the ones that get all the recessives "sasa ll rr"

you can look at
http://www.rabbitcolors.info/int/en/index.html

to find a lot of interesting pictures of various colors and coat characteristics.

 

[feraltydreaming]

Caroline, do you know of a website or book that would give an in-depth discussion of coat type genetics by chance?

Thank you for your input...it might be an interesting possibility.

Respectfully,
RW

 

[caroline]

I googled "rabbit fur-type genetics" and found this journal that may interest you

http://books.google.com/books?id=IVruAA ... cs&f=false

 

[feraltydreaming]

Caroline, why is the satin fur gene denoted as "sasa"? Is it a double-allele trait?

Respectfully,
RW

 

[caroline]

all genes come in pairs in the animal, as opposed to the single copy found in the egg or sperm. I was indicating that it is double recessive "sasa" as opposed to "normal" fur,which would be SaSa [in that trait] or "rr" for the Rex fur, which is also a double recessive trait, and if noted as "normal" fur would be "RR" the same with the angora "ll" and normal "LL" if the animal was" a normal fur and carried the recessive trait it would be noted like "Rr" "Sasa" "Ll"

So... these fur structure traits are not usually shown for the "normal" in the genetic notations that I have usually seen, most of what's listed are the pairs for the animal's color. For example: Aa bb C_ Dd Ee is an agouti rabbit that is brown and has full color that is dense and normal extension to the color. In a Rex rabbit [what I raise] it is called Amber. You can also see that this rabbit carries some recessive genes that are not expressed. it has a self gene "a" and a dilute gene "d" and a non-extension gene "e" I could know this about one of my kits if it had a blue tortoise shell parent, aa Bb C_dd ee and an Amber parent Aa bb C_ Dd Ee. I would know that the kit was carrying these recessive genes, even though they didn't show.

 

[feraltydreaming]

*laughs* This is going to be a repeat of my genetics class, I can see it now *grins*.

I love genetics, so I appreciate the more detailed explanations, Caroline; thank you. So, if, say two generations from the original breeding, I bred the offspring that only showed the sasallrr makeup, what do you think I would run into the problem of the Angora fur not really being shown to be as long as it would be on a typical Angora? I ask because the RX fur has its distinctive feel by virtue of its short length. If I were breading a Satin (meat rabbit variety) to a RX, the Angora length would not be an issue, but I am wondering if the ll would cancel the rr or vice-versa.

Respectfully,
RW

 

[caroline]

Good question I have no experience with angora. I did raise satin about 30 years ago but only for a short time. The REx were my passion & so when I got rabbits again, after a 20+ year break, I got Rex.
I am pretty good with the "book learning" genetics. I love it! But as for practical experience with crossing fur type, I have NO experience and so you'll have to ask further.
There are some Yahoo rabbit groups that deal with specific breeds, like
Rex, Angora & Satin. You might check them out and may find others who have tried your cross & could tell you more.

What I DO know is that once something SHOWS a recessive trait. You can know that it carries 2 copies of that allele on that gene site and so will pass on that recessive gene to ALL it's offspring.
Brown color
Dilute color
Rex fur
Satin fur
albino color [REW]
etc.

 

[feraltydreaming]

I greatly appreciate your input, Caroline.

That said, I am a bit confused as to why it would take several generations for me to get the sarl genetics makeup since, to start out with, all of the fur genes in question are recessive...Can you shed some light on this for me by chance?

Respectfully,
RW

 

[MamaSheepdog]

*laughs* I know that I might be hunted down for committing what is probably thought of as a sin for these two breedsquote]

:lol: Maybe!

One of my "sisters" has an angora buck (the rest of her herd was killed by coons we think), and she wants to breed him to one of my Rex does. I'll have to alert her to this thread.

If you can, I would have someone evaluate the "fiber" from the Rex- it may not have the right texture for spinning. If you are only interested in fluffy pelts that may not matter to you- but then again, you may end up with fur that mats more easily requiring more grooming to keep them at their best.

If you go ahead with the project, it will be interesting to see your results!

 

[feraltydreaming]

*grins* One would figure that, since I graduated with my Masters degree in December, I would be wanting to get away from this sot of thing...no...I am very excited *laughs*.

I contacted someone on one of the Yahoo Groups about this proposed project, and they mentioned that they had seen this cross before but only once. Essentially, the rabbit that had this genetic makeup came out with two and a half-inch long Angora wool (French Angora/RX) and RX fur on its feet, legs, and face.

Now, genetically, that just seems odd to me. I am thinking with a Satin Angora, since (and I could be wrong here) the wool is shorter than the other Angora types, I might not end up with as much wool length loss. I have to wonder as well if I would end up losing the wool completely after a while due to the drastic differences in RX fur vs. Angora wool.

What do you all think?

Also, thank you both for showing an interest in this post. I was hoping that such would be the case.

Respectfully,
RW

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Essentially, the rabbit that had this genetic makeup came out with two and a half-inch long Angora wool (French Angora/RX) and RX fur on its feet, legs, and face.

I am not surprised by the rex fur on face and feet, since the French has short hair there anyway. I looked up the SOP on Frenchies, and the underwool is supposed to be heavily crimped. If you can find some Astrex coated rex, that might work better, since their fur seems to have more crimp.

Another fur factor that may have some consequences is that in Rex the guard hairs are supposed to be short, and not noticeably protruding above the undercoat, whereas in the Fr. Angora, the guard hairs are supposed to protrude above the wool.

thank you both for showing an interest in this post.

Caroline is the genetic expert, :bow: so I deferred to her expertise. I am very curious to see your results, though. I myself am embarking on breeding Astrex coated Rex, which would be culled in most breeding programs, so you wont be getting a disdainful attitude from me, and Caroline is going against all the accepted color crossing rules in an attempt to get some unusual colors. I think you are in good company with rogue breeders like us!

 

[feraltydreaming]

MamaSheepdog, would you mind giving me a run-down of the different types of rex fur? I am not familiar with Astrex fur, and it seems as if there might be some other varieties as well, hence my asking, Ma'am.

Also, Caroline, what unusual colors are you ging for if I may ask?

Also, I posted this thread originally in this forum because it has to do with fur type genetics. However, in terms of culling, I primarily want to use the RX and this cross' offspring for meat. I would like to eventually get around to tanning the pelts, but the jury is still out as to whether the consequences of my vision impairment will allow me to do that. I would like to keep body type in mind throughout this process, but I do understand that I may be better off worrying about that once I get the fur-type that I am looking for since I would be breeding two very differently-shaped breeds.

Do you think that it would be best to choose the body type that I prefer (either SA or RX type) right away and try to keep that in tact along with dealing with fur-type, or would it be best to wait and get a consistent fur type first and then repair any body type problems?

Also, concerning fur, type, can you recommend a few lines that are higher/highest quality? I would rather start with the best RX doe that I can. There is a show in Perry, Georgia that myself, my Satin Angora friend, and her wife will be attending on February 18, so that might be a great way for me to get a particular breeder that I may find has the lines that I need to look for and I would have the advantage of being able to feel and look to work out what varieties might work best and which ones would probably not.

Respectfully,
RW

Respectfully,
RW

 

[rabbitgeek]

RW,

IT'S A SIN! MANY RABBITS WILL BURN ON THE BARBECUE FOR YOUR WILLFUL FOLLY!

[Sorry, had to get that out of my system]

But seriously, Caroline gave you a concise answer as far as what to expect from the first litter. No satin, no rex, no angora. Then you'll be weeding out the Satin and Angora genes for many generations.

It used to be that breeders would breed everything together to "invent" new breeds. Every breed had a satinized variety or a rex variety. People would eat whatever they didn't take a fancy too. People ate a lot of rabbit in those days.

If we are talking "lost on a island with no hope of getting any other bucks," then I guess one would have to do that cross. But I would do it only once. The resulting litter would be 50%Rex/50% Satin Angora.

Then keep bucks from the 50/50 litter to breed back to the Rex doe. The resulting litters would be 25%SA/75%RX. If you have any does that look like Rex, keep those for possible breeding.

Then keep bucks from the 25/75 litter to breed back to the SA does. The result should be 12.5%SA/87.5%RX, but may not necessarily be much further along as far as appearance or wool quality.

One other thing, Satin Angoras are not usually highly developed for meat compared to Standard Rex. SA are graded 60 points out of 100 for Wool and only 20 points for Body Type. So unless the breeder is really into body type, SA will be skinny. They are smaller, ideal weight of 5 pounds compared to ideal weight of 8 or 9 pounds for Rex. You will be trying to build body for generations. Body type is the hardest to build, which is why we crossed a Satin (short hair) with good body type and a Satin Angora to improve the body type of the generations that followed.

Your Rex will have recessive Satin and Angora genes floating in the gene pool that will make themself known by ruining Rex coats for generations to come.

YOUR NAME WILL BE CURSED AND FINGERS WILL BE POINTED WHENEVER YOU WALK BY!

[Was that out loud?]

I'll ask some of my panel of experts to see if they have seen an actual Rex/SA cross.

Have a good day!
Franco Rios
Sacramento, Calif.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Astrex is a wavy or curled coat and shows up in different breeds, but is seldom seen because most of those bunnies end up on the BBQ. Here is a pic of the waviest yet:




She came from normal coated parents, so it is obviously a recessive gene. I have yet to start breeding the Astrex as they need to mature. I plan to cull curlies from my show line to be used as breeders in my Astrex program, but I have no plans to cross the Astrex back into the show stock- I'm sure they are kind of a "dirty little secret" in most programs, and the lower incidence the better. I think they are really neat looking though.

 

[rabbitgeek]

Wow! Nice and curly.

Can I add this picture to my Astrex page?
http://www.rabbitgeek.com/astrex.html

Have a good day!

 

[feraltydreaming]

Good morning, everyone.

*smiles* Today is going to be the day that I am going to do my best to consolidate my Rex/Satin Angora fur genetics project and plan in one place. If this thread needs to be moved to another forum, please feel free to move it.

Purpose of Cross: My main goal is to see if I can keep the satinization and wool length of a Satin Angora intact while seeing how Rex fur may alter the density of the SA wool and, in doing so, determining if the velvet-like texture of the Rex fur can be transferred in some way to the SA's coat.

Candidates for Cross: Red Rex doe and red (preference) or REW (what I may have to work with if I cannot get my preference) Satin Angora buck

Project Considerations:
1. I am breeding to SA's that are more meat-typed in body and have been shown to be such for several generations
2. I would prefer to use a red Rex and a red SA with several generations of red to help avoid the worry of color for now
3. Rex fur and Angora wool are polar opposites in their length requirements, so I may lose or gain unexpected qualities in both
4. Whether an Astrex fur type would be more beneficial to this project over a typeal Rex fur type

Long-term Project Goals:
1. Develop a rex-furred Satin Angora that keeps to a meat-typed body
2. Gain more density in the SA wool
3. Determine if the red Rex fur has any affect/effect on improving the color intensity of the red SA's color
4. Determine if a consistent combinations of desired fur/wool-type can be achieved
5. Determine if the consistent results (pelts and rabbit) will be productive for meat, pelt tanning, spinning, and/or other market-based purposes

I hope this helps clarify my reasoning for doing this experiment and my questions regarding it. I am not looking to make a new breed or even get the results of this combination on the show table at present. I simply have an interest in fur-type with this cross and want to see how far I can carry it in a humane manner that allows myself and the other two in the household to put the culls in the freezer and without consistently breeding any potentially lethal/outright lethal genetic disorders/deformities.

MamaSheepdog, I am indeed comfortable with inbreeding and line-breeding. Given that I know that rabbits tolerate such far better than dogs, cats, horses, etc., I am fine with doing so.

With all of this finally put into one place, I welcome your comments, questions, concerns, etc.

Thank you for your consideration, everyone.

Respectfully,
RW

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Wow! Nice and curly.

Can I add this picture to my Astrex page?
http://www.rabbitgeek.com/astrex.html

Have a good day!

Of course! I posted more pics in Random Rabbit Ramblings last night.

Feralty,

good job on your project outline! I still would suggest getting the body type set first.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

Rex fur is recessive and will only show up with two recessive genes present, otherwise you will get a normal coat. I have done this cross with a Mini Rex and a Jersey Wooly, much like you are talking about but in miniature! I have heard and seen about a random Lion-head type kit showing up though. So what happened was a basically short furred rabbit with some "tufts" of fur around its head and neck and near its belly, but only a small amount. Angora fur is also recessive and need two wool genes to show as well. Satin is recessive but seems to be be incompletely recessive as it has been introduced into a French Angora. The only angora that has a furred face and ears is the English Angora. The French and Satin Angora have clean heads and ears/feet. There is no way you will ever get wool and Rex together in the way I think you mean. Unless you are thinking like a "teddy" guinea-pig type thing? In other words a bottle-brush type thing where all the fur is the same length and standing straight up? That type of thing would actually defeat the purpose of wool for spinning though.. While good Angora Fur needs it guard hairs to keep from being too cottony and a matted mess, too many would probably cause a lot less undercoat as well and not enough crimp either.If you are more concerned with the meat end and not the wool part of it then no problem just use Rex and Satins together as well to keep the good meat body. I think if you want to have fun and don't care either way what happens then just get a Lionhead and introduce its funky genetics instead, LOL

Forgot to add ... YES the length of coat DOES have an impact on the colour intensity , the rex fur has the colour concentrated in a smaller area whereas the angora has the same colour "stretched" out along the much longer hair shaft

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Rex fur is recessive. Angora fur is also recessive. Satin seems to be incompletely recessive as it has been introduced into a French Angora.

I think you've just rained on Feralty's parade, Lauren. Feralty'sDreaming again...

I didn't know that Rex fur is recessive... a friend of mine bought a Rex buck from me because she thought the SCF had visited her Ca. buck, so there are now Cali/Rex babies on the way. She was planning on keeping a rex coated one- I guess she'll have to wait until Gen. 2.