Sore hocks - advise please.

[Zab]

Yeah, super Zab with ''solid bottoms are great'' rants got sore hocks in her rabbitry. :tomato: (I still think solid bottoms are the best though but I'm not very proud of myself at the moment)

BUT.. well. I could use some advice. The reason Kori got this is obvious - he had very little bedding in the cage and it was all in the litter box and in the opposite corner of the cage. He also had very overgrown nails... I can't believed I've neglected that part of their care so much. I trimmed them when I got the rabbits.. and I just never thought of it since, it was more than half a year ago. I have checked the does but they never needed any trim at all, or just a millimeter on the front paws.. (it obviously makes a differense to have them on the bigger space with more running.. even today I naturally checked the nails when I noticed Koris, and the hind feet are so short and smooth already I just can't take much. I couldn't get Koris down as much as their already was. Took some of their front feet nails though) t feels like I've just had them a few weeks... And still, there's no excuse to neglect their care like that. I can't believe I put so much effort in making nice homes for them, researching feed etc and forget such an important part of their care. So stupid.

Anyhow, there is no open wounds, the skin is still intact. But both feet has a little larger than pea-sizes. bald spots. Very red and the feet is pretty swollen. It's not really the hocks but someplace in the middle between the toes and the actual hock/heel. I noticed he was moving funny in the cage..not hopping like normal but standing on his toes... so I took him out and found it.

I of course trimmed the nails immediatly. I think they're short enough to not be a bother now, but I'll take a little at a time and often unill they're perfect. I cut one into blood so I've taken as much as I can for now. I also filled his cage with bedding and will make sure all of it is covered and soft. He is already moving and standing more normal.

Is there anything more I can/should do? Please note that all types of antibiotics or cortison or any other drug is on prescription only here. But should I wash it? Wrap his feet? Put some hydrating ointment on? There's no open wound as I mentioned, so I hesitate about making the skin wet or so.. I could wrap the feet, question is how long it will stay on and how great of a risk there is he just eats the wetwrap and get's himself really sick.. :x So.. should I just let it be and hope that it will heal itself once the cause is dealt with? Or should I do something more?

I'm concidering to give him a soft fleece-blanket to sit on.. they won't rip into strings so they're fairly chewing-safe even if he ruins it. He is pretty much littertrained (by himself) so I think it has a chance of being clean.

Koris cage.. WITH bedding. You think he should have more?

 

[stone soup farm]

Sorry about that. Times just gets away for all of us now and again. Trimmed a bunch of nails this morning and nicked one too close. Wow can they bleed from such a little boo boo.

Not sure what to do about the sore, beside ointment and keep it clean. I know that with people sugar is helpful for speeding healing but if they could lick it that wouldn't work. I only use that trick on my animals when they can't reach their problem,as they all rip right through any bandage.

 

[Zab]

Thanks

Should I put ointment on even though the skin is intact? It's red and swollen but looks smooth.. not dry or so.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Yeah, super Zab with ''solid bottoms are great'' rants got sore hocks in her rabbitry. :tomato:

Lol... I must admit I have a rather big grin on my face right now... :twisted: Not nice, I know, but I cannot tell a lie.

Ahem!

... anyway... :roll:

I believe that long nails and/or poor fur quality on the feet causes sore hocks, not actually living on wire.

As for Kori- why don't you try extra-virgin olive oil? It has healing properties, and is one of the best things to use even on your own skin. It wont hurt him at all if he licks it, either.

My does usually have very short nails because I trim them when they are bred to the buck and also a week or so before they are due to kindle. I have quite a few bucks, so they are not as consistently done. I trim their nails when I breed them, but if one or two bucks are not getting used as much, sometimes their nails get a bit long.

I occasionally do a "walk through" and check the "inactive" rabbits (in the sense that they are not currently in production, not that they are lazy) and trim nails as necessary.

I think with your system of bedded cages it might be easier to miss long nails since they aren't exposed on the cage floor. But now you know you need to watch for it, so I am sure you wont have this problem often if at all.

Kori's cage looks great with all of the bedding! I wouldn't bother giving him a blanket or anything chewable- I think you have caught this early enough that he should heal up just fine, or at least not worsen.

 

[Zab]

:lol: yes, yes.. throw more tomatoes at me! But wirefloors still look way more boring and uncomfortable than a pile of hay or straw. I have started to accept that they're not the source of pure evil, but they look so horrible (I don't really like bara solid floors either..but..) If I had wirefloors I'd put bedding over them A good thing about them is - as far as I can guess - that they ''give'' a bit. Not being quite so ungiving and stiff as a sturdy wooden floor. I havn't actually seen a wire floor, but I imagine that at least. And I think that saves the feet of the rabbits despite the seemingly rough surface a net of any kind makes.

I think you're right with the nails and the fur (bah, not good with that one on a breeding buck, although his feet seemed properly furred) but I think the floor has a thing or two to say as well. I would think that a hard, ungiving (think rock) floor makes more of a point-preassure, causing trouble than a somewhat giving (think soil or the ice on a top frozen lake) floor would. Which is why we use a lot of bedding here. Not just to keep the cages clean but to keep the rabbits feet happy. Of course a big net with big mesh will give very acute preassure points, but I've seen that you all recommend a certain floor net to avoid that.

Well.. oil is sticky, and he'll get a lot of dust and straw-pieces ''glued'' to the sores. But I can try some oil or even honey for it.

 

[Peach]

Don't feel bad about the trimming,Zab Things slip our minds. Some rabbits you barely ever have to trim.... others grow like weeds.

I've seen people use liquid bandage for sore hocks, but if he's getting sore hocks on solid flooring....I would think that is probably genetic for sure.

You can try healing them, but if they are something that is recurring, I'd cull him from the group. If he's getting sore hocks on solid flooring...I'm not sure what to tell you, but certainly something I'm sure none of us expected

 

[Miss M]

Okay, okay, I confess to having a small chuckle at your expense too, Zab... Not nice at all, for sure!

It sounds like he may have some internal inflammation, there... hopefully no infection inside. But I'd tend to agree with MSD -- it sounds like you caught it early enough that it should subside on its own, with the nice, deep layer of bedding you've given him.

You'll need to watch the hay for soiling, which I'm sure you already are. Hopefully, he will not decide that every place is the litterbox now. Naturally, you'll get the random bunny berries.

I believe, too, that it has more to do with the length of nails than the type of flooring... I haven't had sore hock problems except when I've neglected the nails (like when we moved last year).

The fur that is missing from his feet may not grow back, but as long as you keep his nails trimmed, once his feet are healed, they should be fine.

 

[Zab]

Thanks I'll keep a better eye on him. I could take pictures to get your expert opinion..

If he keeps having trouble even with a normal amount of bedding I will look for a new buck. While I definetly dont want to breed for trouble, seeing how we never can use a wire floor in sweden and that bedding is the norm I dont want to cull - this time. But if it keeps coming back, even without the fur on his bald spots (I hope it grows back..) I cant say he's a good buck anymore :/ no matter how rare e breed is, we dont want unhealthy rabbits to clntinue it..

__________ Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:26 am __________

I could see better in daylight. And realized that the top laer of the skin is gone. Still no breakage of the skin though, not all layers at least. It looked less red tody, but that may be the light too. Still, in my opinion, very red and pretty swollen.

So what do you think? Did I notice it early enough for it to heal or does it look bad? :/ I've never seen it before so I don't have anything to compare with. I've heard of it here and in the pet section in a swedish forum - indoor rabbits that has a whole room to hop about in can get it.

I wonder why I got it to be on the middle of the foot though.. maybe because it seemed that way when I first expected sores to be on the point of the heel (in my head the long nails would make him ''lean'' back and put more preassure on the other end.. but I suppose the very tip of the hock isn't laying as heavily on the ground... or something.

I put some oil on it after I took the picture.

 

[skysthelimit]

The back of the heel is a spot where the fur is normally thinner.

Only the buns here that have a lack of density here get sore hocks., I've had jrs get sore hocks, and I have year old buns that don't.
I'm inclined to think genetic.
Rub a little cream in it every day and see what happens.

 

[Marinea]

Zab, please don't beat yourself up over this.

Sore hocks and all, you still give your buns a fantastic life.

 

[grumpy]

Is he a "thumper"?

The bedding looks thick enough.
I've had only one or two problems with sore hocks.

The biggest problem is the foot being damp.
Oils or ointments tend to soften the tissue
making it easier to damage the foot even more.

One lady I know had a sore-hock problem.
She turned the rabbit loose in her rabbitry
and allowed it free-run on the ground. In a
couple of weeks the pad had healed and new
fur was growing back in.

grumpy.

 

[Peach]

Usually sore hocks is related to when the foot is very long and so so furred. Usually what you breed for is short,wide feet in proportion to the body. I'll have to go take some pictures of the feet of Mini Lop so I can show you. The make of the foot is a major thing if a rabbit will or will not get sore hocks.

In the meantime, here's a picture of a Holland Lop with very nicely furred,wide feet

vs.
this poor furred, long foot rabbit (now this is a pretty bad case of sore hocks, but makes a clear example picture)

 

[Zab]

Thanks for info.. well if he heals up without further issues as long as nails are ok and he has a normal amount of bedding, I'll keep him. Concidering how pretty much all rabbits in sweden have a thick layer of bedding, it shouldn't pose a problem.. If I notice sore hocks on his kits (I do keep them untill almost 6 months or so and they have less bedding than normal as well since they have a dirt floor) or if this problem comes back/won't heal.. it's not a rabbit I'll keep. But for now I'll wait and see..
As it is I can't tell if any swedish rabbit will manage a bare floor and half-long nails.. noone keeps them that way. Well, except me obviously -_- ... but if I get a new one I'll look at the feet.

Grumpy: I've heard him thump a few times, he likes to warn the does when something happens. I havn't caught him thumping about just for fun though, or a whole lot. Does thumpers give themselves sore hocks?
The bedding he has now is what most rabbits get around here. Even at breeders/keepers that's so-so with cleaning the cages or don't put more effort than they find absolutely necessary, there is a several inches thick layer. I really can't remember why I didn't give him more when he shoved it to the sides... I can't figure any other reason than that I didn't really think of it. But he has a normal evironment now, at least.
That was my concern about the oils too.. I'll see how he looks later tonight, if I'll put more on or just let it be.

Peach: thanks foer the referense pictures

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

My thumper-buck has callouses on his feet from stamping all the time...he stamps when he's fed, stamps when another rabbit is doing stuff, stamps if I'm out there and not directly paying attention to him, and if he breeds a doe there's like...an hour of stamping to follow as he lets everyone in the universe know he got to breed. :roll: I assume that's why he has callouses whereas my non-thump-prone buns don't.

If he's a stamp-lover, he might just have overdone it.

Best of luck, I know you'll see him well again, you take wonderful care of your buns! (THOUGH, I will admit...I've never seen sore hocks on a rabbit except those on solid floors, LOL...but then usually from sitting in their own pee, which I know yours don't do...so IDK aside from the thumping)

 

[Flemishstar]

Zab

I like the look of wire cages...but ive built over 100 hutches in my life and I love having hay stuffed in there...lol...Everyone jokes with me that if I DID get wire cages Id defeat the purpose and Find a way to stuff hay in the whole thing lol!!! I have wood floors also...And I clean once a week...big deal...and my rabbits feet are still clean...im okay with it...My NZW came from wire cages and when I put them in my hutches with hay they were soo happy playing around and digging...And I must add IF cleaned regularly my hutches last about 5 to 7 years..and then maintainence is needed...

 

[Zab]

Kyle: Ah.. well, we'll see It doesn't look worse at least

Flemishstar: Hay is nice I'd definetly put hay in an all wire cage.. :lol:
I've always had wooden hutches. Everyone has here.. and never really seen the problem with it. I've only seen all-wire cages on pictures... but I still think they look really boring without any cosy straw/hay or shelves or tunnels or... But that's not really the floor eirger.. you can put sll those thingds onto a wire floor afterall.

__________ Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:56 am __________

He's not getting better. The left foot is actually getting worse.

I don't get it! His nails are trimmed, the feet and injuries dry (tried oil but I quit since everything just stuck to it and he got thumping from having sticky feet), he has a soft layer of bedding.. only place without bedding is the shelves.. I havn't seen him using them much.

I supose I'll switch cages with Rams and remove the house in Rams cage.. then he can only sit on the floor, with the bedding. unless he shoves that away but he hasn't done that in the current cage.

Things are not looking good for him.. I really don't see why it doesn't heal. He has as much hair on his feet as everyone else (well except the sores, naturally) and he's in a cage with tons of bedding material.. Still no open wounds but the hairless red area on the left foot is getting larger.
He's the last of his line except his kits, whom noone seem to be interested in. Try explain culling him to the heritage breed people. Cocci and now sore hocks? They'll probably kick me out of there for poor rabbitmanship just for that. *sigh* I doubt ''unexplained death'' would be any better.

But the truth is that I can't take him to the vet even if I wanted to and I can't keep an animal that's suffering just because I want him to still breed. He's lost a bit of weight too.

Why? What am I doing so horribly wrong to have all of my animals getting sick? And not healing? I believed I had a decent animal keeping, promoting healthy, happy animals. I'm getting less sure by the minute.

-------------------------

Now his feet are wrapped with dog whool (changed the bandages to another type after the picture, since I got some good advice) and the wounds are sprayed with antiseptic liquid bandaid. They started to break up, I do hope this puts an end to that.
He looks all miserable in the picture but I caught him in the act of eating hay just a few moments ago, so it can't be that bad..

Now someone said it may be fungal.. which would explain why it won't heal. I don't see any signs of it being anything but a regular preassure wound.. but perhaps it's normally not very visible if it's fungal or not?
If it is, will the antiseptic spray be enough, or should I unwrap, try to remove the spray and wash with iodine?
Now it got complicated.. if it's regular wounds, I think the wraps should help concidering they're soft and made to keep preassure away from the wound. But if it indeed is fungal.. I'd rather keep it dry and wash it regularily .. and definetly not close it into a wrap of any kind..

Seems everything I do gets wrong.

 

[Miss M]

It being fungal could definitely explain it not healing, but sore hocks can be difficult to heal up.

What I did for sore hocks was this: I put a large amount of triple antibiotic ointment (I know it's probably prescription there) on a gauze pad, put the pad on the sore, then wrapped it up with vet wrap (the stuff that sticks to itself but not fur), using a figure 8 (wrapping it around the leg above the joint as well) to help keep the pad in place. I then taped with medical tape around the end of the bandage, so it wouldn't come undone easily. I changed the dressing every 3 days.

Without access to triple antibiotic, I'm not sure... maybe you can get something like tea tree oil (which is antibacterial and antifungal) or oregano oil (similar to tea tree).

I had a baby bunny that kept getting out of its mother's cage and ending up on the ground. It ended up with swelling feet with white flakes on the pink skin. Other members said it looked like a fungal infection. I used athlete's foot cream for a while, and it healed up.

I don't know if you can get that stuff there, either.

But you mention iodine... that should work for either, I would think. It's supposed to be really good on fungus, and I already know it's really good on bacteria.

So... iodine... may not have to cover the wound, either. That sounds like a good thing to try. If I have trouble with sore hocks in a bun again, I might reach for the iodine instead of the ointment.

:clover: :clover: :clover:

I can't see the picture. I'm going to see if I can fix it.<br /><br />__________ Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:13 pm __________<br /><br />Oooooooooooh... it's Facebook. Is it in an album set to "public"? If not, it will not show up here. But normally, I don't have a big white space with that issue, either. I've never seen a pic do this.

 

[Zab]

Thanks. I've used vetwrap already, and made a sock for him where he could still use the joint properly.
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/sorehocks.html <-- I like that way of wrapping. I used some of my dogs whool for a preassure pad, and some cotton around his ankle to avoid cutting blood supply off.

I'll try jodopax (like betadine in sweden).. I wonder if I should still wrap his feet or not.. I think the straw may be rough on already injured feet, although it's very flexing. Wraps would take all pointy-ness away from the straw... is there any problem with wrapping betadine?

... wait...I use that under Dackes wraps so I should know the answer. So.. any problem wrapping betadine if it's indeed a fungal infection?

__________ Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:45 am __________

As for the picture, it was public but something didn't work. I removed it a few minutes ago though since I got too many helpful advice I hadn't asked for from people not knowing what the problem was and I just started feelig all bad.<br /><br />__________ Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:21 am __________<br /><br />Changed the wrap.. and it doesn't seem worse yet..

I'm concidering to try usin peat as bedding. the low PH is supposed to deter bacteria and other nastiness, and.. well. I've had my mind on trying it in the colony as well, figure I could have a test-run in Koris cage.. Not sure how it's over there, but it's somewhat common for horses and such here, and supposed to be good and dust-free..

 

[Miss M]

:doh: That's the way I wrapped it! Duh... you'd think I'd remember... guess it's been too long. Thanks for the link, because it mentions that they had to change it only every week. That would save money, time, and bunny stress!

Except I used the kind of wrap that you get at the drugstore, which is obviously meant for people. Maybe that's why I also had to put medical tape around it to hold it.

No problem with wrapping the betadine even if it is a fungal thing.

The only issue you might have with peat is staining of the fur (on non-black bunnies, anyway). Other than that, it should make great bedding.

 

[Zab]

Hehe, glad to be of help I used tape as well. Just in case... it sits securely on horses but not bunnies for some reason.

Do you think I could skip tthe wrap f I change bedding? Right now I have it mostly to spare the sores from the pointy ends of the straw.. with peat+newspaper I figure I could leave them open to the air and wash them a couple of times a day with iodine instead?
He seems to leave the wraps be but I don't like the look of his squeezed toes and the dog fur sticking out.. :/

hehe, I don't expect my white abbits to stay white.. but it should be easily brushed off. Maybe not the feet, but I don't really care as long as it's just stains and nothing unhealthy..<br /><br />__________ Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:54 pm __________<br /><br />Bah.. went out to check the horses a last time for the night and checked on Kori as well. Found one of the feet had started to swell up.. I've wrapped it too tight. Removed the wrap and as I'm not going out in a few hours (at 2-3am) he's barefoot for now. Put down a lot of newspaper over the straw, hopefully he's clever enough to rest on what's left of that once he's finished attacking it. But that makes my decission on the turf pretty easy; fungi deterant or not it will be easier on his feet. It's so difficult wrapping them (I did mention he's not the type of bunny to freeze up on his back?) and hard to get it just the right tightness..