Some questions about housing and feed

[Steve]

Hi everybody. I'm Steve, live in Belgium and am new to keeping rabbits for food. We used to have some rabbits when I was younger, but they were solely kept as pets.

I'm getting started now with everything for the meat rabbits. Problem is that it is apparently not such a common practice here so I have difficulty finding all te supplies that seem so readily available to you overseas.

Afte som searching I found a local breeder who has Californians for sale. I'm thinking about buying 1 buck and two does to start.
After a longer search I also found a shop where I can buy J clips and J clip pliers. (Most hardware shops I went to had never heard of it before.)

I've already read alot on the forum and learned some interesting things but still have not found the answers to the following questions to my full satisfaction:

What is the optimal size for the wire cages per rabbit (Cali breed)?

If their main diet is going to be pellets, can I still provide them with greens, such as f.e. grass, ...? And if yes, can I give them as much as I like or better keep it to small portions.

Also for the pellets, give them as much as they want to eat? Or give them a daily ration? If yes, how much a day per pound for each rabbit?

Thanks beforehand for all the help!<br /><br />__________ Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:14 am __________<br /><br />Some extra questions I forgot to ask:

From what ages can you breed does/bucks.

You put the doe in with the buck, but how long do you keep them together? Do I repeat this after a few days?

How long do I wait to breed a doe again after kindling/weaning her litter?

Thanks again!

 

[ottersatin]

Hello Steve,
I will give you my opinion as I am sure you will get many.
I have been raising Rabbit since 1989 and I'm still here!
I raise Satins, the breed is about the same size as Californians or Newzealands.
my cages are 24" X 36" X 18" for Does and 24" X 30" X 18" for Bucks.
I feed Pelleted Rabbit Feed as the mainstay of my herd. Each Rabbit is fed
as an individual. you will find that some Rabbits require more or less feed
to maintain optional health. On the average, one ounce of pelleted feed per
pound of body weight. My suggestion is: To feed at the same time everyday
Morning or evening, whichever is better for you. I would start with a chosen
amount per rabbit. When you return to feed the next day you will find that
they have either eaten all or left an amount in the feeder.
Those who have cleaned their plate, you might want to provide a bit more feed.
The ones that have feed remaining I would cut the amount fed and you will
eventually see how much each individual requires.
When feeding Does with Litters they should be on full-feed.
Anything you add to the feed may/will offset the balance of the pelleted feed ration.
But, It is not a problem and often a good thing to provide occasional treats.
Greens, Oats Black oil Sunflower seeds etc, Everything in moderation, Moderation is the key!

I would wait till your breeders reach Senior weight before breeding them.
Before you take the Doe to the Buck, check her to see if she is ready to breed.
she should be slightly swollen and bright red to purple in color.
DO NOT leave the Doe with the Buck unattended! Watch the happening so that
you will know for sure whether or not they bred. It should take all of five minutes
or less. Do not turn your head or blink your eyes, you might miss it!
Once the Doe kindles and the kits are at least four to six weeks old
you could re-breed the Doe if she is in good condition. If not I would
wait till she regained condition. DO NOT allow your Does to go too long without breeding.
They have a tendency to develop fat on the ovaries which may be detrimental to getting them bred. Keep your working animals working, but not overworked.
I hope this helped.
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

 

[Mickey328]

Hi Steve, welcome! I'm surprised that it's rare there. I'm of Belgian descent and my grandparents told me that pretty much everyone either raised rabbits or bought them from folks who did. I guess times change

You'll find a lot of different opinions. I think the best is to check them all, see what seems reasonable for you and start from there. I have Silver Fox, which are larger than Cali's, I believe. My cages are all 36 x 24 x 18. I went with cages only 24 inches deep since I have a hard time reaching farther than that. Each breeding rabbit (I started with a buck and 2 does as well) has his or her own permanent cage. I keep the buck between the two does so they're used to each others' scent. When I wean the litters I split them up into other cages; about 4 or 5 per cage. When I can accurately sex them, I separate them by gender. Do make sure you have baby saver wire on the does' cages. This is wire that is only 1/2 x 1 inch. It's the floor of the cage and needs to be up the sides about 3 inches or so. This will keep the kits from squeezing through and falling out.

When you get your rabbits, the breeder should also give you a supply of the food they've been eating. If you're going to change it, you need to do so gradually as their digestive systems are easily upset. Ask the breeder if they've been getting greens and if so, how much and what kind. If not, you can start them, but only a very little at a time, and keep an eye on their waste. If it changes or gets runny, it can cause a problem. You can very gradually increase the amount as they tolerate it. During the summer, ours always have hay and mixed grains available, but they mostly eat fresh as it's what they prefer. It also helps cut expense since we have plenty of weeds I can pull and feed them.

Most people feed twice a day and measured amounts; I'll let them provide advice from their experience. So far, ours are all free fed...meaning I just keep the feeders full. We're fortunate in that they only eat what they need and haven't gotten overweight. If that should happen though, I'll have to cut back as it can cause health problems as well as reducing successful breeding.

Weight is more important than age when it comes to breeding. Most folks who are breeding for show wait longer than those of us who raise them for meat. You might also need to consider the weather. Most rabbits do very well in the cold, but the heat is hard on them and often bucks are sterile for a while during the hottest part of the summer. I try to time breeding so that it's cool enough to not put stress on the buck and doe, but not so cold to really endanger the kits...just in case the doe doesn't pull enough fur or keep them well covered. I try to breed early fall and early spring. Sometimes late winter as well. I let them rest during the summer since the heat is difficult for them anyway.

Yes, absolutely take the doe to the buck's cage. Some does get very territorial about their own space and rather than breeding will attack the buck if he's there. Most of the time, the "action" occurs quite quickly. As a rule, I wait til the buck's done his duty twice, then I pull the doe out. I try early in the morning and then again in the midafternoon. I breed both does at the same time so that they can act as fosters for each other if needed.

Just my take on things. Like all of us, I'm sure you'll modify things as you go along and learn more about raising rabbits in general and your own particular animals in specific.

Good luck, and do keep up us informed as to how everything is proceeding...pictures are ALWAYS welcome

 

[Dood]

The cage laws in Europe usually required more space than over here. I would contact your governments Agricultural office to find out your legal requirements.

I switched from a mostly pellet diet to mostly fresh greens this year. I was very carefull to offer high protein forage as well as grasses and 'weeds'. I found my rabbits grew slower but they looked fantastic and they glowed with health, especially the adults. I still offered a high protein (18%) pellet but they rarely ate it.

I would not give them as much pellets as they like, over weight rabbits have decreased fertility. In the winter my 9-12 pound rabbits get less than a cup a day, only the nursing does and weaned kits get as much as they can eat.

I breed my rabbits at 5 months.

I put the doe and buck in a 1.5 meter x 1.5 meter section of the barn. Once the male has bred twice I remove the female. I try again 12 hours later.

I usually re-bred when the kits are 4 weeks old. I have one doe who must be bred after giving birth or she won't get pregnant again for months but I foster her kits or cull down to 4 so she keeps good condition.

 

[Steve]

Thanks for all the info! It helps me alot.

@Mickey328 : My great grandparents used to breed all kinds of animals for their own and to sell, rabbits, chickens, pheasants,... And I remember seeing chickens butchered when I was very young, but the process of keeping your own meat supply has mostly dissappeared here in Belgium (as far as I can find out). There may still be some older people still keeping rabbits for meat here, but most info I found about rabbits locally was all about keeping them for show/pets.

I've always been interested in keeping animals and growing my own vegetables and the next logical step is offcourse meat. I've already tried succesfilly with chickens but I don't like the plucking so this year I'm going to try rabbits and quail.

The reason I'm doing it is not so much to save money, but more to get some food on the table that I can be sure is healthy and that the animal has had a nice (although short) life. I am also a strong believer that if you want to eat meat you should be able to kill the animals. You gain a whole lot more respect for it that way. It always surprises me how many people condemn you for cruelty on the animals when you tell them you butcher them yourself and/or are keeping them for meat. Even if most of those people eat meat themselves almost everyday. ( You should have seen my girlfriends face when I informed her about my plans to start keeping rabbits for meat. She's a vegetarian and doesn't have a problem with other people eating meat, but adorable bunnie rabbits were something else.

It also gives me a great feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment to be able to eat your own produced food.

I'll be sure to post pictures and info when the cages are finished and I have the rabbits. Today I've been looking around to find some sturdy 'hardware cloth' (not sure if it's the right word) and I think I have found something useable and not to expensive.

Thanks again for all the swift help. I'll be sure to visit the forum often to check all other tips & tricks.

 

[3mina]

I wouldn't recommend hardware cloth, the gauge of the wire is too thin to be useful as a floor or walls. Rabbits can chew through it easily and so can other predators.
You want at least 16 gauge wire, 14 is better, for floors and walls. That's on this side of the pond for floors, I'm thinking solid floors are the European norm.

Take a good look at the breeders cages and ask where they got their supplies, local knowledge is invaluable

 

[ottersatin]

I would stick with 1" X 1/2" floor wire
and either 1" X 1" or 1" X 2" cage wire for sides and top.
It will serve you better for a much longer time than any other option.
As always, JMPO.
Ottersatin ldtimer:

 

[Steve]

I'm not sure I completely understood what 'hardware cloth' really was. (It's sometimes difficult to find the correct words in english if you're not a native speaker).

What i found are big sturdy mats used to put in the mix we use here for in-house floors (not cement, but something similar), the material is galvanized. With 5x5cm openings between the wires. I'm planning on using this for sides and top. (If gauge means the thickness of the wire used to make the mats, I believe it's something around 3-4mm.)

For the floor I'm planning on using the same material BUT covered with an extra layer of 'cloth' with 1x1cm openings. (Just using the 1x1cm 'cloth alone for the floor will not work for rabbits i think because it's not strong enough to support the rabbits weight sufficiently. That's why I'm planning on using a double layer. If necessary I'll affix metal/wood supports for the floors underneath the cages.

(If I'm correct, 1" = 2,54cm, so approx. 2x2" for the sides and top, floor the same but covered in an extra layer of approx 3/8". Hope i converted the measurements all right, my math is much worse than my English

As far as I know (and can find online), there are no specific rules or regulations regarding the housing of rabbits in Europe. As long as they're kept out of rain, wind, sun, etc... and have sufficient food and clean water, you're not doing anything wrong. Ofcourse, for pet breeders and keepers here in Belgium keeping animals (any animal) on wire is absolute horror, but so far i can't find any regulations against it. From browsing around online, i found it a common practice overseas for rabbits, quails, etc… and mostly the animals don't seemed too bothered by it.<br /><br />__________ Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:31 am __________<br /><br />I’ve finally made a selection of the breeds/rabbits I’m starting with.

Next week I’m picking them all up from the different breeders.

I’m getting

2 Calis (doe & buck)

I found a breeder who has a ‘Blue Beveren’ buck available (no does for the moment yet), but he has a doe and a buck ‘St. Niklaas Blue’. From what I read this breed has originated from the ‘Beveren Blue’ in the same region, but later became a seperate breed. They do look very much alike. Apparently, both Blue breeds are also one of the eldest existing Belgian breeds.

I’m still searching for a Belgian Hare, I’ve read a short post here about somebody who crossed a Belgian hare doe with NZ buck and got good results. I’”d like to try something like that also with the Calis and plus I really love the look of the Belgian hare rabbits.

I like the fact that apart from the Cali’s I’ll be breeding with national heritage breeds. (Found some more information about Belgian heritage breeds and it surprises me we have so many different breeds here.)

 

[Marinea]

Welcome to RT, Steve!

I see a couple of potential issues with the wire, based on the sizes you gave. I don't know how the predator situation is where you live, but I would be concerned about 2"x2" sides. I would worry that paws could get in there and get to the rabbits if they are outside. Perhaps go half way up the cage sides with the smaller 3/8" wire- this would discourage predators as well as make sure any future babies are safe.

As far as the floor, 3/8" spacing might make it harder for the rabbit droppings to fall through the cage. Something you might need to watch and adjust for.

Good luck with your rabbits! Be sure to post pictures when you get up and going.

 

[Southbound_SF]

Hardware cloth is a kind of woven wire mesh, where each piece crosses over and under those next to it. Like this: http://www.hardwarecloth.org/images/wir ... -cloth.jpg
All those little bends can be hard on a rabbit's feet. And yes, "gauge" refers to the thickness of the wires. We usually say it's 14 or 16 gauge wire...but mm is probably easier to make sure we're all talking about the same thing.

What you want is welded wire that looks more like this: http://www.animalcages.org/images/cage-wire-4.jpg
See how the wires don't cross? Much smoother for comfortable footing. 1 inch x 1/2 inch openings are standard around here for the floor, and larger sizes are fine for the walls. Anything larger leads to sore hocks, anything smaller may collect waste on top. Make sure you put the closer spaced wires upwards.

The wire measurements you have are about the same, so consider whether it will be a comfortable floor to stand on. Ignore the pet folks: wire floors are cleaner/more sanitary, and if properly built just as easy on good feet as anything else (if not better).

Hooray for heritage breeds! I raise an American original myself (Silver Fox), which had become rare. Oh sure, they all taste the same, but variety is fun!


SB<br /><br />__________ Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:01 pm __________<br /><br />Oh, and get galvanized wire if you can. It will last much longer.

 

[DogCatMom]

Welkom, Steve. If you read/speak Dutch, perhaps the website of Het Belgisch Raskonijn can help you contact others who are interested in keeping heritage breeds of rabbit alive. According to the website, there are 16 breeds of rabbit HBR is focusing on, all originally developed in Belgium and all threatened/endangered.

Bonne chance!

 

[HoppyMeal]

Hi Steve, I have NZ and Calis. I would suggest feeding the rabbits what they can clean up in a 24hr period any more than that and they will start getting fat. I am talking about feeding pellets. I feed a 17% milled pellet from the local feed store. My rabbits eat about 5oz a day. My cages are 24"x36"x18". If you are looking for some good literature on the subject the book "Storey's Guide to Raising Rabbits by Bob Bennett is a good one. The writer of that book has been raising rabbits for over 40 years and wrote the 2nd edition manual for the Boy Scouts and the chapter for veterinary care in the Mericks guide. Hope this helps.

HoppyMeal

 

[Steve]

@ SBSF : Thanks for showing me the difference between hardware cloth and welded wire. It’s definitely galvanised welded wire I have and am going to use.

@ Marinea : There’s not a lot of large (or small) predators in the neighbourhood, but I’ll keep your tip in mind when constructing the cages.

@ DogCatMom : Thanks for the info, I do speak Dutch and will certainly check out the site you recommended.

@ HoppyMeal : I’ll see if I can find the book online, thanks.


Again thanks everybody for the tips and help!

 

[zee]

I recommend getting another book named "Rabbit Production." Here is the link:

http://www.amazon.com/Rabbit-Production ... production