Singleton kit and first-time doe problems! (Update 5/14)

[Teddy2511]

the-deed-is-done-first-time-doe-is-bred-t13961-30.html

This morning I went down to check Mimi's vent and try letting the kit feed. The kit hasn't eaten yet, and even this morning he couldn't get any milk out of her.
Is her milk just not coming down? I have given lots of fresh dandelion greens and some fresh parsley, and during the night she ate two small pieces of banana coated in dried parsley and rosemary. I know that the kit can last up to 72 hours without eating, but should I get prepared for having to hand raise it?

She also flinches and stares at him every time he touches her when I leave them alone in the nest so I took her out and flipped her for him instead. She has just been hanging out in the nestbox that is in her cage and I wonder if she doesn't like this little imposer? Should I risk leaving him alone with her in the nest?

Another thing, she still has not completely cleaned herself up... There is a little less blood on her than yesterday and it is a little pinker in color, but there is still a fair bit down there. She also seems really sensitive whenever I pick her and squirms when I move her hind end around. And her vent is puffy/enlarged/swollen and red; is that normal? (The pics are from this morning.)

Any help and suggestion would be quite appreciated!

 

[GypsyTinker]

I'd wash her up with a warm cloth and maybe some yarrow tea. It's a lot to have to digest all of the blood and hair, helping her get clean will help her relax and heal.

Give her some more parsley and dandelion greens and some love.

As far as hand raising, I have never done that, but if the kit can't get milk even when force nursing you will have to or cull.

 

[Teddy2511]

Alright, I didn't have any yarrow tea but I did have dried/crushed raspberry leaves which I made into a tea and added to my basin of warm water.
First I soaked her bottom in the warm tea/water (which seemed to help her relax) and then I took a small cloth and and gently wiped away anything around her vent. she sat in my lap in a towel for a short time, and now she's busy cleaning herself a second time in her cage. Her vent is still pretty puffy and swollen, but is that normal for a doe who finished kindling only 20 hours ago?

I also gave her a bowl of dandelion leaves and parsley and another tums in case she wants it. So far she is loving the greens, and seems to be feeling and acting pretty normal, but she still hasn't shown any signs of letting down any milk...

 

[LauraNJ]

I'd just really watch her. My first time doe had a stuck kit but she cleaned herself all up immediately.

Did you see the afterbirth? If you did then there should be nothing else left in ehr but if you didn't then she may be having an issue. I didn't see that you mentioned it above.

I flipped my one doe because one of the kits looked like he didn't get a full meal. Her milk didn't let down until I rubbed between her eyes and she went into a bunny trance, then it was all good. I followed the sticky in this section to put her into the trance.

I'd give some electrolytes too just to see if that perks your doe up, it certainly can't hurt anything.

 

[Teddy2511]

Okay... I tried flipping Mimi again and putting the kit on her belly. He/she found at least 3-4 different teats but nothing seemed to be giving him any milk...

It has been just over 24 hours since he/she was born; should I buy some formula and try that? Or should wait and keep attempting to flip her and feed the kit (Mimi does NOT like this).

Or should I try trusting the doe and put the kit in the nest and then the doe in after him and see if she feeds him in there? I just don't want her to trample or injure the kit... So far she has shown no motherly interest in the baby.

 

[LauraNJ]

Was the doe totally relaxed and in a trance like state? WHen they are really relaxed you can move one of their legs and it is just sort of limp.

It is nerve racking with a new Mom and a kit(s). The Mama rabbits really don't show much interest in their kits. Mine goes in early morning, around 6 am, nurses for a short time and nurses again around 8 pm.

During the day the new Mom just started going into the nestbox before her afternoon nap to clean babies. Other than that, they ignored them the first week.

I'd try to have the doe feed the kit. This is the time mine are getting ready to go into the nestbox. I would try again. THinking good thoughts that you can get the kit fed.

 

[ckcs]

I had a recent doe that the kits didn't seem to be getting milk when I flipped her. I then tried holding the doe over the kits on a towel and that seemed to do the trick. It was almost like the kits couldn't suck hard enough to get the milk to come up when the doe was on her back but when the doe was upright gravity helped. The doe also retained a kit which she delivered dead on day 4, which may have been the problem as after that the doe fed everyone fine.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I took her out and flipped her for him instead.

I know this works for a lot of people, but it hasn't for me. I had flying popples the first few times because the doe kicked them and she obviously wasn't properly tranced. The position is an unnatural one for the kits- they lay on their backs to nurse, so I will either hold a doe in the nest or on my lap to nurse.

She has just been hanging out in the nestbox that is in her cage and I wonder if she doesn't like this little imposer? Should I risk leaving him alone with her in the nest?

She should not be lounging around in her nest. If there was a litter in there, she would crush them. I would remove the nest so it does not become a habit, and take the kit out twice daily to feed until it is around ten days old and less likely to get smothered.

There is a little less blood on her than yesterday and it is a little pinker in color

Going from red to pink is a positive sign.

I have never seen a doe with that much blood on her after giving birth. Now that she is cleaned up, watch for any more discharge. She could have a retained placenta or kit, or possibly a tear in the uterine wall.

The parsley you are giving her helps to contract the uterus, so hopefully if there is anything in there it will do the trick.

her vent is puffy/enlarged/swollen and red; is that normal?

I believe so. I checked a doe's vent the day she was due to give birth, and it was hugely swollen and purple before she kindled. Remember, does are very receptive after birthing their kits, so it may be that she is just "ready".

Okay... I tried flipping Mimi again and putting the kit on her belly. He/she found at least 3-4 different teats but nothing seemed to be giving him any milk...

Try feeding her some other herbs that increase lactation.

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So far she has shown no motherly interest in the baby.

She is not supposed to. Rabbits only feed their kits once or twice a day. If they were constantly coming and going from the nest it would attract the attention of predators.

Good luck with the little popple! :clover: I hope her milk comes in shortly.

 

[Teddy2511]

After many, many dandelion leaves and parsley... The milk finally came in late last night! (About 36 hrs after giving birth.)

Since her milk came in, I have been taking her out twice a day and flipping her, and then letting the kit nurse as much as he can before she's decided she's finished. The kit seems to be getting a fairly full belly from each feeding, but I think I'll try holding her upright as you've suggested and see how that goes as well.

Probably because this is all so new to her, the doe panics every time the kit starts to suck and lies in my lap, still but tense until the little guy moves on to another teat... And then repeats the process. And no, I have never been able to get this doe into a complete trance like state, though I can occasionally get her pretty relaxed (unfortunately the presence of the kit obliterates that...).

And when I mean lack of motherly instinct, I mean that she pays no heed to where she stepping when hopping over him and she has no desire to sniff or clean the baby; and like I said, she doesn't really like feeding him either.

Those are the reasons that I am hesitant to leave him alone with her for any period of time. And like you mentioned, MSD, I am planning on waiting until he is a little older before I give the baby back.

She is no longer lounging inside the box, but instead sits on top of the enclosed portion. She likes shelves.
I'll make sure to remove the box tonight.


As to her vent, it is still very puffy on and around the outside, but the inside looks pretty normal. There is still some blood residue, but she doesn't seem to be in any pain and is acting like her normal self.

Going from red to pink is a positive sign.

I have never seen a doe with that much blood on her after giving birth. Now that she is cleaned up, watch for any more discharge. She could have a retained placenta or kit, or possibly a tear in the uterine wall.

The parsley you are giving her helps to contract the uterus, so hopefully if there is anything in there it will do the trick.

Should I breed her back right away if there is any chance that she could have a problem internally? I haven't seen any more discharge, but she still hasn't done a very good cleaning job...

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I think it might be better to wait to breed her back in this case. I would try at around 2 weeks post kindling.

I'm glad the kit is getting fed now! I bet you are already very attached to the little guy.

 

[Teddy2511]

Alright, I will wait on breeding then.

Yes, I cannot tell you how attached I am already becoming to this little trooper!

Tonight I am praising God! For the first time since he was born, Mimi has finally started showing a mother's care towards her baby!
I finally decided to trust her with the kit in her nest (The one she had been furiously building while I was gone this afternoon; even though their was no baby in her cage!), and she was a curious at first, but went right to work nursing the baby and ended with a full tummy in no time!


Here's a picture of the nest she made today. She only pulled a tiny bit of fur right before kindling, but I guess the empty nest in her cage was just too much to stand! :

 

[Miss M]

Good news!

 

[Teddy2511]

Okay... Now some not so good news.

For the past 2-3 feedings I am pretty certain that the kit has not been getting much if any milk from the mother. I have been giving her the nestbox and baby every morning and evening; does the exact timing (how early or how late) matter? I am going to give her some more dandelion leaves as soon our most recent snowfall melts (probably tomorrow), but what else can I do?

The kit is one week old now, and already has short, stubbly fur all over his body so I am going to put the nest box in with mom permanently on the weekend (no more ins and outs). Will that help if she can access him all the time?

His belly is wrinkly before and after feedings; not full like it should be. I have tried flipping the doe, trancing her, and then trying to let him nurse, but she almost always panics and the kit has almost been injured several times already. So that option is not safe. I have also tried holding her over the baby, but even though she remains mostly calm the kit seems lost down there and doesn't seem to be finding anything.

Any suggestions? If he doesn't start getting milk from her, should I supplement with formula?

Thanks!

 

[Miss M]

No, the exact timing shouldn't matter. Only that she's had enough time between the times he's put out there to fill up with milk again and feel the need to nurse.

I don't know that he will get more milk if she has access to him all the time. Quite a few singletons have been raised by being put in twice a day and then brought inside. It sounds to me like she is just not making much milk for some reason... maybe because of the pain of the situation with her vent... or the kit is not capable of nursing effectively.

If he hasn't been sufficiently fed for the last several feedings, you might want to start thinking about supplementing. Is his belly any different after a feeding?

 

[Teddy2511]

His belly was slightly different after last night's feeding, but it wasn't any different this morning. Either way it is not distending at all and is quite wrinkly. I'll go see if I can get a good picture...

__________ Thu May 02, 2013 11:09 am __________

Okay, here are pictures taken 1.5 hours after he spent almost an hour in the nest with mom.
He also is just starting have the flaky skin/dander thing... I have had this before with kits, but I still don't know what it is.

 

[MaggieJ]

It certainly looks to me as though he is not getting enough milk. I would start supplementing now, before he gets weaker.

This thread should help you:
formula-feeding-baby-bunnies-pics-vids-t3691.html

 

[Miss M]

He doesn't look really skinny, so I think he's been getting a little, but not enough. I agree, I think it would be good to start supplementing him.

 

[Teddy2511]

Okay, I'll let him try tonight's feeding on mom, but if he doesn't get a full belly,
I'll feed him a little bit of formula and see how that goes.

 

[Miss M]

Keep us posted!

 

[squidpop]

I'm sort of going through a similar thing as you are. I tried to feed a kit that didn't look like it was being fed by flipping my doe- and it was sucking but didn't seem to be getting milk and I thought it might be because she was upside down- and my doe hates being upside down so I thought maybe the stress was making her so she wasn't releasing the milk. So I wanted her to be right side up and put the baby under her but was afraid she would kick or step on it. So I made a kangaroo pouch out of fabric and tied it around her tummy and put her on my lap right side up— gave her some oats from my hand till she calmed down and then slipped the baby into the kangaroo pouch under her. I could hear the baby sucking and when I got him back out he looked like he had gotten some milk. It was a lot less stressful to the doe.

But also, after I did the whole Kangaroo pouch thing I found someone else on another blog who put the baby in a plastic container 3 inches deep with a cloth in the bottom- and then put the doe on her lap and slipped container with baby in it under the doe- same kind of the same thing as a kangaroo pouch— protects the baby somewhat from being kicked.

Also, have you tried feeding your doe things high in protein like pellets, oats, and raw sunflower seeds- their milk has like 36% protein in it- so it would make sense she has to eat lots of protein to make the milk. I give my doe pellets, and about a table spoon of oats twice a day plus a teaspoon of raw sunflower seeds, and a tiny bit of linseeds.

About the doe not seeming like she takes an interest in her baby:
Mine acts like that too but you have to realize in nature they stay far away from the nest to lure predators away- so her instinct is to stay away from the nest and eat all day make milk and then sneak back to the nest for 2-5 minutes and then dash away again. So I think if you force a doe to go into the nest it actually upsets them- it would attract predators in the wild and that goes against their instinct to stay away.