Sick kit--cull or antibiotic? What illness?

[Anemone]

Hi all,

I'm new to this board and pretty new to rabbits. My does just had their second litter (first for Doe #2) and one of their kits is half the weight of the others and it's bottom is wet with urine. There was also some gelatinous liquid near the urethra, but it was clear, not white. It's bony, but active and energetic. Definitely something wrong. The others from the litter weigh in the 15 oz area and it weighs a measly 8. I have three questions: 1.) What could this disease be, and do you think it is contagious? 2.) What is recommended in this situation, cull? Or give antibiotics (and if so, how much--I do have some penicillin)? And 3.) if I have to cull, how on earth do you cull tiny kits???

I have another question if anyone wants to weigh in:

I have two does. They are both good mothers, but Doe #1 is a much better meat (shaped) rabbit, has a voracious appetite, and has a much better milk supply (the babies she fed were about 2 oz heavier than her counterpart). The question is, do I give up on my Doe #2, since her appetite is low, she is more slender, and her milk supply is lower? Or do I just keep going with her since she is "of age"? The other option is I could keep her until one of Doe #1's female kits gets older. I am just getting started and only have a trio.

Thanks so much and I appreciate all of the input on this board that I have been perusing for so long! :bunnyhop:

 

[MaggieJ]

Hello Anemone and thank you for joining us! :hi:

I don't know what the problem may be with that one kit, but culling it is a practical option. Or you can just wait and see what happens, but I'm thinking nothing good will come of it. On the few occasions where I have had to cull a young kit, I have put it on a newspaper on a hard surface and given it a whack on the head with a hammer. It's not pretty, but it is effective and instantaneous. If you are afraid of spattering, put it in a baggie first.

Regarding Doe #2, I'd give her a chance until a good female kit from Doe #1 is old enough to breed. Even if she is not the best brood doe, she may do better another time. You can always cull later. Just my take on your situation... There are no right or wrong choices, so go with your gut.

 

[Zass]

The injectable penicillin is used for some rabbit illness, best to supplement with rabbit probiotics if you use it.
Oral penicillin isn't recommended for rabbits. Broad spectrum antibiotics in general can wreak some havoc on a rabbits digestive tract. They are a lot more dependent upon maintaining well balanced intestinal bacteria than dogs, cats, or humans are.

Runts born 1/2 sized can catch up with their peers, but kits that are struggling later are more likely to continue to struggle and generally aren't as economical to keep. Culling provides a buffer against potential disease, even if there is none. A form of "playing it safe" I suppose.

 

[ladysown]

the kit.. cull. gelatinous fluid, tail wet.. that kit is ill and since it's small cull it. Most likely, since it is small, it got the short end of the stick with how it's gut works. how? put kit in hand and whack it's head hard against something solid. it's a downward motion. I have a concrete brick I use for such kits. Trying to hit a small kit on the head with a hammer is not as easy as it sounds and you don't want to miss.

in regards to doe 2. I would keep her working until you have someone to replace her. I'm doing that currently. have a doe I like, but her kits aren't making it through weaning. a good half of the litter seem to develop gut issues. I've learned that it's more a genetic issue than it is a disease issue. that makes her a non-breeder in my book. I'll keep her until I have a replacement in place. Mind I keep hoping that i'll get a litter from her that stays healthy!!!!

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I would cull the kit. Even if treatment with antibiotics solves the present issue it probably wont grow out as it should.

When I cull small kits I put them into a bag and whack them (HARD!) against a solid surface. It still isn't something I like to do, but that way at least you don't need to see it happen, and death is instantaneous.

As for doe number two, I agree with the others- keep her and breed her until you have a proven replacement doe. She may surprise you and be a much better mother next time.

 

[MaggieJ]

Both methods work... it is mainly a question of which you are most comfortable with. I have never had a problem with using the hammer... we are talking about a swing of 18 inches at most. What I don't like personally about the other method is that I can't see what is happening... and it turns my stomach to think that perhaps the blow isn't hard enough. But that's just me... a lot of people find it easier than a hammer... so go with whichever sounds easier for you. They are both effective for the kit.

 

[Anemone]

Oh my goodness, you guys are brutal! Haha. Culling it is what I suspected you all would suggest. The woman I bought my does from said it sounded like a urinary tract infection, and to give him a drop of subcue penicillin. I think regarding gut health, he'll hopefully be ok since he is still primarily nursing. I'm going to do that since, maybe because I am new to this, I don't know if I have the strength (heart? guts? will?) to smash a cute baby rabbit's head with a hammer. I'm sure I'll get there My husband already thinks I am sort of a monster for starting on this rabbit venture and I'm afraid that might put it over the edge for him :lol:

So anyway, I'll give the penicillin and re-weigh everyone next week and see how it goes. Honestly, he is so bony I don't know if the penicillin will do the trick; I feel bad I didn't notice until now.

Regarding Doe #2 (aka Lola), I am going to share more info and weights on kits:

Lola had 3 kits, only one survived (she struggled to get them out the birth canal) I fostered four of Doe #1 (Dahlia)'s babies to her and you'll see from the below weights they have suffered for it. The first kit is her biological kit, born larger than the others:
1) 13.3
2) 12.1 (fostered)
3) 12.3 (fostered)
4)13.6 (fostered)
5) 8.9 (fostered. the sick one.)

Dahlia had 10 live babies, but is only raising 6:
1) 14.8
2) 15.8
3) 14.3
4) 14.2
5) 1.1 lbs
6) 14.1

Dahlia didn't keep her kits as warm as Lola, and she eats like a freaking horse, but other than that she is great. So would the suggestion be to keep one of her female kits and grow it out to replace Lola? If that is correct, do you think it would be best to choose a female or two that from Dahlia that were NOT fostered? Do I go by weight? Shape? Do I just choose the biggest female at time of culling?

I feel like I've been given some kind of godly duty of deciding who will live and die. Talk about pressure!

The other thing is, maybe you all don't think that Lola's shortcomings (weights only 2 oz lower than Dahlia's kits) are that big of a deal? Would that be a dealbreaker for you? I guess we'll see how they continue to grow, but I was just thinking that maybe since they are both good mothers I consider keeping them both? Decisions, decisions..

 

[Zass]

2 oz on the first litter wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, especially after the hard first birthing.
It might have taken a while for her to adjust to producing enough milk for the 4 fostered kits.

If you like the rest of her traits, I'd say keep her. If she has another small litter with big kits, you might consider culling her then. It would be awful to loose her in labor to being unable to pass oversized kits.

When I decide to replace a doe, I grow out two. I can decide who lives and who doesn't after they kindle...if they even make it that far. I may end up culling for temperament at puberty, or even for taking too long to reach senior weight. If they both make it and turn out to be nice big fast growing does and good mothers, I'd keep whichever you liked best and offer the other for sale as brood stock.

 

[jimmywalt]

We had a kit that passed away this morning. It was 4 weeks old and we fed it with an eyedropper for the past couple weeks. It was 1/3 the size of it's brothers/sisters.

Fortunately it died by itself, but we were talking about what would be the easiest way for us to cull it if we had to (we never kill our bunnies - they all are pets). I thought that if we put it in a large jar and turned the car on, then put the mouth of the jar near the exhaust pipe and let it fill with exhaust, then quickly put the top on. That would probably do the trick rather quickly.............. But fortunately we didn't have to do that.

I with you on all the posts about hammers, rocks, etc. MAN I could never do that. I'd be really sick to my stomach.

Good luck with your kit and the decision ahead.

 

[MaggieJ]

I was very upset the first time I culled a kit. But it was clearly suffering and I had to choose between dispatching it or letting it die slowly. My hands were shaking as I held the hammer and yes, my stomach was in knots. But I knew it had to be done, so I set aside my feelings and did it. It was instantaneous -- no time for it to be frightened or to feel pain. It's never easy -- nor should it be -- but I can do it now without feeling sick.

 

[Zass]

I with you on all the posts about hammers, rocks, etc. MAN I could never do that. I'd be really sick to my stomach.

Some people are willing to put themselves through something unpleasant in order to spare the kit, and provide the most instantaneous and painless form of euthanasia that they can.

I think it's very commendable.

 

[Anemone]

I definitely hold no judgement for the kit cullers--sometimes you just have to do it. I'm reminded of my close friend who, after graduating from veterinary school, worked for a year in India. She said she has never seen animals treated more cruelly than at the Buddhist centers where she worked. Because they didn't believe in euthanasia, they would let poor animals continue for weeks, or even months, suffering greatly. Sometimes the hard choice is the right choice. I'm still waiting to see how this goes, but if I do have to do it I might just give it to the dog. knowing him, he would kill it instantly. It would still be a risk though. *sigh*

To Zazz--I guess my hesitation with keeping her is also the fact that she doesn't have the broad shoulders and wide rump that is desired in a meat rabbit. You are right, though, with good mothering qualities etc., she might be a keeper. And maybe even body shape won't matter as much if I get a good buck. I might keep a couple of Dahlia's girls just in case, since I don't actually have a buck yet (the breeder who I am getting him from has had outbreaks of moxymatosis and isn't going to release him until her herd is cleared). That way the potential does I have from her won't be related to the new buck.

Thank you all so much for your help with this. If I have to cull this little one it will be so hard, and your thoughts and ideas are very helpful. I appreciate all of your responses!

 

[grumpy]

An adult rabbit is only as good as its worst day as a youngster.

Be done with it. You'll save yourself uncounted problems later on. I know
I sound cold-hearted and cruel. For that I apologize. However, realistically
it's the most humane thing to do for the youngster and the best thing for
yourself later on.

Best guess would be some form of non-specific enteritis.

grumpy.

 

[Dood]

I thought that if we put it in a large jar and turned the car on, then put the mouth of the jar near the exhaust pipe and let it fill with exhaust, then quickly put the top on. That would probably do the trick rather quickly.

Please do not use this method, it would not be quick and would be very traumatizing for the animal.

Suffocation IS NOT an acceptable method to euthanize young mammals. Neonates have unique metabolisms and tollerate very low oxygen levels (which likely evolved in case of burrow cave ins) and why it is possible to bring chilled and seeming dead kits "back to life".

Cervical dislocation and blunt force trauma are the only acceptable non veterinary administered methods for euthanasia of kits.

 

[EnglishSpot]

What about chilling that kit to death? Stick it in the freezer and let it freeze to death? If they can chill to death on the wire that quick, could that be acceptable?

 

[Zass]

What about chilling that kit to death? Stick it in the freezer and let it freeze to death? If they can chill to death on the wire that quick, could that be acceptable?

Could you really place a warmth-seeking baby in a cold freezer, then and close the door?

How would you feel, knowing it was nosing around...looking for somewhere warm...

I think it's one of those things that might seem like a good idea...until you try it.

 

[EnglishSpot]

Hmm, hadn't thought of it that way. Thank you, Zass!

 

[katiebear]

I have had to put down three Kitts so far...It is very hard on your heart, but watching one waste away and then finding it cold in the bottom of the nest box is hard too.I was preparing to cull a runt in the last litter we had and that is what happened....I waited to long... I can only hope he didn't suffer long. He was only three days old...or would have been. You can tell by the way they are growing the back end wont grow right. Looks kind of shriveled. Even after only a couple of days there is a difference. This one seemed fed but did not have the full belly look.
I whack them hard on a hard surface,Yes it is difficult but you are doing the right thing. And death is sudden and complete.....

 

[cmfarm]

I hatch out lots of chicks every year. I end up with some that have bad legs or have slow growth so with hundreds of chicks over the years I have had to cull several. I find that a sharp pair of scissors and a snip of the neck is quick and effective. I did give my dog a couple of guinea keets with badly slipped tendons and they died with the first crunch, but I don't do it often as I don't want her to think it is okay to eat live chicks. I haven't had to cull a kit yet but if I do the scissor method is what I will probably do.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

My husband already thinks I am sort of a monster for starting on this rabbit venture and I'm afraid that might put it over the edge for him :lol:

I had this same issue with my family when I discovered a huge abscess on my original herd sire. I was afraid of the possibility of it being systemic Pastuerella and culled him immediately.

My family was appalled; "What?!? You aren't even going to try to treat it first?"

I had to explain that the rabbits are livestock, not pets. There is a big distinction there, above and beyond the fact that we eat our rabbits. By keeping ill animals around, (especially ones suspected of having Pasteurella) you are risking the health of the entire herd. You have to ask yourself "Is saving this one rabbit so important that risking the lives of every single rabbit here is worth it?"

I was very upset the first time I culled a kit. But it was clearly suffering and I had to choose between dispatching it or letting it die slowly. My hands were shaking as I held the hammer and yes, my stomach was in knots. But I knew it had to be done, so I set aside my feelings and did it.

The first kit I had to cull was several weeks old, and had snot running down his face. There was no question that he had to be killed immediately, but it still took me about half an hour (with a post on RT for support!) to work up to it.

But kit or adult rabbit, it is always hard when you feel that the choice in the matter has been taken from your control. Culling and processing for meat is one thing, but having to cull a rabbit for health issues is always difficult for me, even knowing that it is the best thing to do.

Some people are willing to put themselves through something unpleasant in order to spare the kit, and provide the most instantaneous and painless form of euthanasia that they can.

I think it's very commendable.

:yeahthat:

if I do have to do it I might just give it to the dog.

I did give my dog a couple of guinea keets with badly slipped tendons and they died with the first crunch, but I don't do it often as I don't want her to think it is okay to eat live chicks.

Your dog would almost certainly kill it with the first crunch, but I agree with CMfarm about it not being a wise choice to feed live animals to your dog.

I got into the habit of feeding my daughter's dog dead kits straight from the nestbox, and even that was a bad idea. She became far too interested when I checked nests ... so much so that when I decided to test her response and showed her a live kit, she started to take it from me. I have had to work with her to make sure she understands that live kits are not edible under MamaSheepdog's Law.

An adult rabbit is only as good as its worst day as a youngster.

Truer words were never spoken! That should be emblazoned over the entrance to every rabbit barn!

If you do save the kit, Anemone, resist the urge to keep it. I know from personal experience that nursing a critter through an illness deepens your emotional attachment to it... but with livestock, the rule is "keep the best and eat the rest". You definitely don't want to breed any but the most robust animals for the long term health of your herd.