Should Medical Care be a Right?

[akane]

but what about all the drugs, toxins, vaccines, air pollution, water pollution, etc. that 'higher powers" have their hand in?

You don't even have to go that far. The US has high taxes on the importation of healthier versions of things. Even if we look at things we usually consider unhealthy. Cane sugar and chocolate are heavily taxed so that we have to use corn syrup and keep the product domestic. In other countries chocolate is a lot tastier, higher quality without the crappy preservatives, and in all foods the use of certain sweeteners over our high fructose corn syrup and similar products results in a feeling of satisfaction, even fullness, you don't as easily get in US foods. It also reduces diabetes compared to sweeteners made in the US or allowed a lower tax. There are endless examples of these things from junk food to healthy meals that aren't as healthy as they would be elsewhere. I don't think you can blame anyone for any health problem except maybe things like smoking. Even alcoholism is a product of our society, it's much rarer to drink to such excess in other countries, and addiction and/or depression problems that may have everything to do with genetics and not lifestyle choices.

Something needs done for healthcare but I don't know what. I owe $2000 in medical bills and require $900/month for meds. All for genetic problems that resulted in more problems because of crappy doctors and a few injuries that were complete accidents growing up. With good insurance and paying portions of what I owe I ended up with at least $2000 in debt collection. Right now I don't have insurance. I didn't go to a doctor for the toe I'm pretty sure I broke and I'm having to rapidly get off a med that would cost far too much out of pocket. We applied for help from various angles but mostly were denied or have to jump through hoops before it takes effect. They don't even look at medicaid applications for 45days. By then I might be $1800 in debt for medications that I can't just quit cold even if things would be fine without them. If we turned it all over to state or federal money though I question if I would even get the meds I need. I'm sure doctors would have to justify costs to a greater extent and my combo of meds is first off nearly all off label use and secondly medications that are normally not supposed to be mixed together. If some state system is looking at what is being prescribed they probably would not see the justification. With insurance they mostly do what the doctor says.

 

[Dood]

Your money is not yours as the only way you make money is on the back of publicly funded infrastructure - who the heck is going to donate to that!

How do you earn your money? Do you rely on public roads to transport yourself or your goods? Or on public police to make those roads safe? Or a government to decide what rules all citizens will abide by on those roads?

Do you need to buy tools to make your product? Who checks to make sure they are constructed safely and won't slice off a finger ? Who regulates your product and ensures they are safe and that you don't use lead paint on them? Who bans/regulates lead paint and other toxic substances in the first place?

Must everyone learn for themselves what is and isn't safe?

Government, and hence taxes, are necessary and if you don't think so go visit a country where the laws are not enforced, or don't exist in the first place - all those countries that are stealing Americas manufacturing jobs because if a worker gets injured on the job they are left to fend for themselves as there is another person fighting to work 12 hours a day for $1.30 an hour.

Countries where they don't spend money on infrastructure so steets are used as toilets and dysentery is spread to all economic groups by the swarms of flies.

Countries where DDT, Dioxins and PCB can still legally be used or poured into the lakes and rivers and there is NOTHING the fisherman trying to feed his family can do when he gets stomach cancer and his children are born with birth defects

 

[BlueHaven]

Ok, heres one for you. Me and my husband get his insurance paid though his work. I pay mine out of his pay, about six hundred a month.

My friend says she can't afford health insurance. However they have a house larger than ours, and two motorcycles in the garage and also a brand new car.

We don't have a new car, we don't have motor cycles and we don't vacation but about every three years, and then its with relations.

We both got cancer at the same time. Me thyroid, her colon.

My deductible and co pay were over ten grand for about a hundred thousand worth of surgery, and radiation and scans. (those scans alone were 16 grand each) The RI was 26 grand.

She has NO insurance, but cried in their beer and got her fifty thousand dollar surgery for 4 grand on payments. How is this freaking fair?
Its the hospitals that do this, their the ones that tick me off. They can charge less if they feel like it.
That's less than we pay for one year of coverage.
Luckily we are both fine now, and I am truly glad about that, but it is so frustraiting.

 

[myrkari]

The term "Right" needs to be clearly defined. The Founders believed that there were natural God-granted rights to all people, and the Constitution is based upon that- our rights were granted by God, NOT the government.

This is why I wasn't sure about contributing... 'cause our viewpoints are so inexorably different. I don't define "rights" the same way as you. Of course I respect your definition in the scope of the debate - but there's no constitution where I'm from, your Founders founded America, not Earth... so when I start to talk about rights, I automatically think about my idea of basic human rights, not the Constitution. I know the discussion was US-centred and I see that you all are talking about whether it should be a constitutional right... But I wasn't raised to know and honour a codified set of rules above all else, so I see things from a vastly different perspective than you guys. I also don't believe God gave me anything at all, let alone said rights, but I don't feel that's super relevant to this particular discussion. But anyway - we come at this discussion from such different backgrounds that I think we might end up talking across each other rather than to each other here.

If my arm was hanging off, I'd fight my way to a surgeon, you know? Nobody could tell me I hadn't the right, as a human being, to medical assistance

Everyone does have a right to seek medical assistance. But they don't have a right for it to be given to them or subsidized by someone else against their will.

As noted above, I have the right to personal property which others may be denied the use of. The money I earn is mine, and I have the right to spend it as I see fit.

This is another area where our two cultures guide us so differently. I do believe people have a right (human right, not constitutional right) for medical assistance to be given to them. It might be a pipe dream, it might be a logistical nightmare, it might never be actually achievable, but it should be the case.

As to keeping your own money; sure I'd be pretty sore if someone came and took money right out of my pocket. It's mine, and I agree - I earned it, I should spend it as I see fit. But I have absolutely no problem with my taxes (which never reach my pocket anyway) funding subsidised healthcare for everyone in my country. It's always been the case for me, I've never known anything different, so I guess if it was a sudden change someone was trying to foist upon me I might feel different about it. But I guess what I'm saying is I see fit to spend it on this stuff :lol: I am genuinely happy that I can contribute to a system that helps people, not only because it's a good thing, but because I have benefitted from it in turn. I pay in, because I take out. I've been hopsitalised twice, I have chronic cluster headaches which without daily medication leave me in near-constant pain, I have a long-term birth control implant, I have had repeated tests and scans for several scary symptoms that I needed reassurance about - all provided to me by the healthcare service everyone in my country helps keep available. I don't need my arm stitched back on right now, but someone else does, and maybe tomorrow I will - and what goes around comes around. Sure it's simplistic, but it's also true. How can I want these good things for myself and in the same breath deny them to other people? What's human about that? What's right about that?

There's a lot of tax money being spent on stupid stuff in this country, and yes there is a small proportion of healthcare funding that goes on people who don't put back into the pot, but I will never ever be able to believe that helping people who need help is a bad thing.

 

[Zass]

In two hundred years they will probably be appalled at what we consider to be quality medical care;

To be honest...I'm already appalled by much of what is considered "quality medical care" in the US...

I'm more worried about being forced into it than denied it. :roll:

 

[MaggieJ]

I was sorry to see this topic posted without indication of what country we are talking about. The OP would have been better off asking the question "Should Medical Care be a Right in the United States?".

RabbitTalk is not an American forum, in spite of the fact that the majority of our members are Americans. It is a Canadian-based International forum and if you look at the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights you will see that medical care is one of their basic human rights. Please see Article 25.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Most of us who live in countries that have a universal health care system are proud of the fact that none of our citizens are denied -- or charged for -- basic health care. The American Constitution is irrelevant to us, as are the intentions of the American Founding Fathers. Sacrilege, I know . . . but there it is.

 

[Dood]

In the USA only 50% of federal taxes go towards social services and Medicare so for someone earning $20,000 and with 10% of their income taxed their "forced charity" to these services is less than $2.75 a day :shock:

Is that really so unreasonable?!?

Not to toot my own horn (that be very un-Canadian, eh) but I make less than 30 grand a year and I still manage to give $500 to $1000 to charities that are dear to my heart on top of my taxes, not to mention all the time I donate volunteering

 

[BlueHaven]

Sure would like to know the tax rate in some of the countries that do have national health care.
I always wondered if it was that much more than what americans pay.
We pay about 25% of our income for fed taxes. Add sales tax, county taxes, property taxes, etc, I would think its more like 40%.
I wouldn't mind it being fifty % if it just paid for all medical fees.

 

[katiebear]

I will probably get tarred and feathered for this but...I think what scares the American more than anything is what we see as abuse...What do we pay for? what is basic health care?
I would willingly pay for the birth of a child but I refuse to pay for an abortion. I will pay for reconstructive surgery but I will not pay for your sex re-assignment. Any and all elective surgeries should be self-pay. And what about mental health?? the system is broken in this country, I don't know about others..and long term care, who decides when and if to pull the plug?? We need to define all the terms before just jumping into a system that no one here understands..
And just to be clear everyone in this country has access to health care the big debate is...who is going to pay and what is going to get paid for?

 

[Zinnia]

It's all about trust. I personally don't trust that the current American government has the people's welfare in mind. And, for that reason, I'd rather not depend on them. If I trusted that our government wasn't bought, I'd be far more accepting of the idea.

 

[katiebear]

It's all about trust. I personally don't trust that the current American government has the people's welfare in mind. And, for that reason, I'd rather not depend on them. If I trusted that our government wasn't bought, I'd be far more accepting of the idea.

I agree, they are supposed to work for us but they don't. They see themselves as the master and the people are the servants. We pay them too much and we pay them for life, but they still sell out to the highest bidder. I had thought at one time that all government positions should be voluntary ans anyone taking P.A.C. money should be removed and tried, but it wouldn't work greed is the American way...The new golden rule- "He who has the gold makes the rules" is in full effect here...

 

[Marinea]

I believe a good part of the U.S. attitude on this subject is not wanting the government involved in something so personal as health care. So many people are dissatisfied, with good reason, with so many areas that the government has had control over- education, for one huge example.

Our neediest citizens do qualify for medical care, along with many other programs. Do I begrudge them? Not for a second. Do I want this program expanded across the board? Not for a second. I have a chronic illness and do not believe others should be made to subsidize my care in whole or in part, either through increased insurance rates or through government subsidy.

I think a lot of this boils down to cultural differences. Over time, these may change. Cultural norms usually do. Right now, I think it's a matter of many people not wanting to give up their choices in health care to a government that can't even protect their own computer systems from hackers, a government that can't prevent people running a government agency from going on personal vendettas (IRS vs "tea party people"), a government that seems to be operating less and less in the sunshine (the TPP) when they're doing anything at all.

 

[myrkari]

BlueHaven, in answer to your taxes query:

The basic rate of income tax in the UK is 20%, payable after an initial tax free allowance of £10,600 (about $16,000) has been earned, and up to the basic rate threshold of £31,786. The Higher Rate of 40% is then payable on any income over £31,786 ($50,000) up to £150,000 and then an even higher rate of 45% on any income over that £150,000 ($235,000).

On top of that we have a standard 12% National Insurance (reduced to 2% if you earn over £3532 ($5500) a month) which is a secondary tax and qualifies you for unemployment assistance, maternity allowance, bereavement benefits, and a state pension at retirement age. The reduction to 2% for mega-earners is, I think, because everyone gets the same fixed rate of money back in the end and so they don't want millionaires having to give too much in at the start. Heh. Because this tax is used to fund so many things, not just the benefits it provides, and because people are living a long time after retirement, there's not enough money in the state pension pot right now, so people have just been told they have to work longer: our retirement age just went up a couple years ago and people got all in a flap about it. I doubt there'll be anything in there for me by the time I hit 67 or whatever age it'll be by then. C'est la vie.

Those are the actual taxes taken out of your wages before they reach you. We also have Council Tax which is based on the value of your home and payable monthly by you to the district council of the area you live in which helps with local stuff: police wages, dustbin collection, road maintenance, employing people to sit behind the desk at the council office and look busy, etc. The council don't supply power, water, etc - those are paid for to the individual supply companies (a friend of mine in Kansas told me the city did his water or something?)

VAT (our version of a sales tax) is 20% on most things that are VAT chargeable; some products are exempt, e.g. food, unless it is cooked and served as a meal; and some products are charged at a lower rate, e.g. sanitary napkins are charged at 5% and men's razors are exempt. Our VAT is all included in the ticket price, so we don't have to do mental maths while shopping, which I like. There's excise duty on alcohol and cigarettes and fuel duty on gas and so on - all of which are high and therefore make the costs of the products high. 20 Marlboro Reds will cost you about £9.20 now ($14.50) and a gallon of gas is around $8.

There are other random taxes too, like Road Tax that you have to pay to have a vehicle on the roads, and Stamp Duty, a strange value-percentage one that you pay to the government when you buy a house, as if estate agent fees and land registry fees weren't fun enough - and if you were the seller instead, and it wasn't your only residence, there's Capital Gains Tax. If you want to watch TV you have to buy a yearly license which is essentially a tax, it just pays for the BBC. Oh, and inheritance tax, because we tax it when you earn it, and we tax it when you spend it - so if you try and sneak round us and just save it til you die, we're going to tax your kids instead! :mrgreen:

 

[karebru]

I was sorry to see this topic posted without indication of what country we are talking about. The OP would have been better off asking the question "Should Medical Care be a Right in the United States?".

RabbitTalk is not an American forum, in spite of the fact that the majority of our members are Americans. It is a Canadian-based International forum and if you look at the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights you will see that medical care is one of their basic human rights. Please see Article 25.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Most of us who live in countries that have a universal health care system are proud of the fact that none of our citizens are denied -- or charged for -- basic health care. The American Constitution is irrelevant to us, as are the intentions of the American Founding Fathers. Sacrilege, I know . . . but there it is.

Some of us would question the relevance of the United Nations...
I'd be happy to go back to having an international discussion about rabbits. This stuff is gut wrenching, but hard for an opinionated, conservative Yankee to stay out of. (Rebel, actually, but that's a whole other discussion... PLEASE! don't go there! :x )
Again, the fact that it remains civil is a huge testament to the character of the multi-national, RT membership! :beer2:
:bunnyhop: :bunnyhop: :bunnyhop:

 

[MaggieJ]

Again, the fact that it remains civil is a huge testament to the character of the multi-national, RT membership! :beer2:

I agree!

 

[Dood]

For anyone interested the "Tax Freedom Day" is now a popular analysis of when in the fiscal year the average citizen of each country is done paying taxes and finally gets to keep their money for personal use

Here's the link - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day

Although Canada is pretty far down the list I don't begrudge my taxes even if I complain about them and don't always agree with where they're spent

 

[Zinnia]

Maybe... RT people could RUN THE WORLD!

 

[myrkari]

Maybe... RT people could RUN THE WORLD!

Can you imagine that?! Based on this thread alone, the first meeting would grind to a massive standstill with Dood and me (and probably MaggieJ as backup) filibustering for the inclusion of public healthcare. As a group we'd never get anything done :lol:

 

[katiebear]

:lol: The only thin anyone would worry about us hiding is that "extra" cage, ya know the just in case cage?? What "extra" cage...that is quarantine... Who said anything about new bunnies??? :lol:

 

[Zass]

It's all about trust. I personally don't trust that the current American government has the people's welfare in mind. And, for that reason, I'd rather not depend on them. If I trusted that our government wasn't bought, I'd be far more accepting of the idea.

I agree with you 100% here. It's a trust issue.
By and large the US populace does not trust the current US government to do things RIGHT or WELL.
I do not begrudge a single tax dollar going towards health care, but I want my own participation (and my children's) to be OPTIONAL.
They can have my money, but they had better not require checkups, or screenings, flu shots, fluoride, or anything else. .:evil:

I have had insurance provided by the US government for low income families. We now have private insurance purchased through my husband's workplace. In the US there is a MASSIVE difference in the treatment and care you receive between the two. I am honestly terrified of having to get back on government insurance, but it's really looking like there is no choice. The workplace will no longer be able to provide insurance...