She just keeps on giving surprises!

[GBov]

We got a five year old, pure bred, black NZ doe a year ago and put her with our Gold Tipped Steel NZ buck, Goof Ball.

She gave us two GTS, One REW and a Red kit.

Her next litter had GTS and a black.

THIS litter only had two kits in it.

One is either a very red blond or a really blond red and the other?

Its marked like a Californian!

Little white body with dark ears, nose and tail.

What is up with THAT???

 

[Dood]

It's all those ... :explode: ... recessives!

 

[skysthelimit]

Steel is an agouti, and so is cal...

 

[MamaMandy]

I thought cal or himi markings were shaded?

 

[skysthelimit]

I thought cal or himi markings were shaded?

The chin gene is shaded, and chin is an agouti gene. When the chin gene chd acts on an agouti, you get chin, when the chin gene ch acts on an agouti, you get cal. When the chin gene chl acts on a self, you get shaded.

__________ Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:42 pm __________

So a chin colored rabbit is a shaded agouti, because chin strips away color, turning the agouti rufus band to white.
It strips the black to a beige/sepia, except for the extremities (sables), and once again stripping all color but the extremities (himi).
And once more with the c gene, stripping away all color for REW.

 

[GBov]

I think pictures are called for as my brain is going "yer what?"

 

[skysthelimit]

That would require a trip into the barn, probably not till tomorrow night for picts
I do have plenty of agouti and chins, same pattern except one has rufus and the other pearl white.

Unfortunately I don't have any sables yet, just a sable marten, and a seal.

I do have one very unhappy Cal, and plenty of REW.

http://www.thenaturetrail.com/rabbit-ge ... layan-rew/

 

[TerriG]

The chin gene is shaded, and chin is an agouti gene. When the chin gene chd acts on an agouti, you get chin, when the chin gene ch acts on an agouti, you get cal. When the chin gene chl acts on a self, you get shaded.

I think pictures will help me too. I am a visual learner. The part I quoted is where I think I am struggling. I would love to get more chin pelts. I think they are beautiful. I don't understand the difference in chd, ch, chl.<br /><br />__________ Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:59 pm __________<br /><br />I am reading the link you posted. Still trying to wrap my brain around it.

 

[skysthelimit]

chd an actual chinchilla colored rabbit




ch a himi color with points- californian




chl sable and its companion colors.

<br /><br />__________ Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:29 am __________<br /><br />ususally chd is thought of as chin dark, chl as chin light, points are light sepia instead of black.

http://www.chini-mini.com/breedingchin.html hope that does not cause further confusion. this was my text of study when trying to create sable from my chin line.

 

[Dood]

There are 4 variants in the C-locus

C_ is most dominant and rabbit has brown black eyes

cchd_ is chinchilla dark and rabbit has brown black eyes
cchl_ is chincilla light and rabbit has brown to greyish blue eyes.
Both of these give us sable and pointed bunnies when paired with other coat genes but cchd makes the body a darker cream and "sooty" colour and is not the prefered allele so most show stock is cchl

ch_ is himalayan and rabbit has RED eyes and gives us "pointed whites" (think of them as pointed REW)like Himalayan and Californian

c c is most recessive and the rabbit has red eyes(hence the name Red Eyed White) and this combo has the unique feature of hiding all the other loci(A B D E W) that effect coat colour (I dont know what a V locus (vienna/blue eye) would do)

So Chinchilla and Himi both cause "shading" or "points" and the question is what colour are your bunnies eyes?

 

[TerriG]

Not trying to hijack. Just trying to understand. So according to that, these animals would carry these c-locus if I am reading it right.
Tort/drk brn eyes = C_
Palomino-drk brn eyes = C_
Agouti-brn eyes = cchd_
Black buck = C_

Then I start factoring in kits and I get a little confused.

Tort+Palomino=both carry C_
1 Tort=C_
1 Palomino colored with gray points=??
1 Palomino colored=C_
1 Whitish kit. I thought it was a frosty, but it is going a little more creamy/gray with gray points. Maybe sable? Eyes just opened and they are brown. This kit would have to carry one of the chinchilla genes, right? cchl or is it the 'ee' acting cchd??

Agouti+Palomino=Agouti cchd Pal C_
3 Palomino colored=C_
1 Chinchilla colored=cchd
1 Frosty (med blue eyes)=cchl or is it the 'ee' acting on cchd??
1 Silver Marten=cchd

Agouti+Black buck=Agouti cchd Black buck C
3 Agouti=cchd
1 Palomino with gray points=??

 

[Dood]

1 Frosty (med blue eyes)=cchl or is it the 'ee' acting on cchd??

Because of the eye colour it's cchl, E loci do not affect eye colour but you could have "v v" at the V loci (vienna/blue eyes) if sire and dam have relatives with it.

1 Palomino with gray points=??

Will be "cch cch" OR "cch ch" OR "cch c"

 

[TerriG]

1 Frosty (med blue eyes)=cchl or is it the 'ee' acting on cchd??

Because of the eye colour it's cchl, E loci do not affect eye colour but you could have "v v" at the V loci (vienna/blue eyes) if sire and dam have relatives with it.

1 Palomino with gray points=??

Will be "cch cch" OR "cch ch" OR "cch c"

I initially thought it was a BEW, but after I posted pictures, I was told it was a frosty. I don't know anything about any relatives, so I am flying blind here. That is part of the reason I am asking so many questions. I am trying to fill in those blanks as we have litters.

 

[skysthelimit]

That is part of the reason I am asking so many questions. I am trying to fill in those blanks as we have litters.

Even when I know the relatives, I am still filling in as I breed

 

[JueLee]

We got a five year old, pure bred, black NZ doe a year ago and put her with our Gold Tipped Steel NZ buck, Goof Ball.

She gave us two GTS, One REW and a Red kit.

Her next litter had GTS and a black.

THIS litter only had two kits in it.

One is either a very red blond or a really blond red and the other?

Its marked like a Californian!

Little white body with dark ears, nose and tail.

What is up with THAT???

Hello GBov,

Are you sure your buck really is a steel? Steel must have Es E, while red/fawn/tort/frostie must have e e. The doe could carry e, but I don't see how a steel buck could produce anything non-extention. Maybe he's an agouti with dfficult to detect rings. Some of my agouti and steel kits are easily mistaken one for the other, though the banding gets clearer when they get older.

If the doe is really a hidden steel (Es e, or Es Es, or aa Es E) instead of a pure self, then she could produce steels with an agouti buck. I have several hidden steel does like that.

The californian marked kit is easy. Both parents could be either C ch, or C c. The C gives the parent it's solid color, and the ch_ makes the kit white with black points.

Then, if the buck is really an agouti carrying e, instead of a steel, the REW kit could be ch_ ee. The ee would hide the black markings, so you actually have a caifornian marked kit that looks pure white.

Or maybe one of the parents is hiding the vienna gene, and the REW kits is really a californian marked with the vienna gene happening to cover all the black bits.

So, this would mean your doe is C ch Es e. She could be A_ or aa.

And your buck is A_ C ch E e.

The steel kits are A_ C_ EsE.

The black kit is probably a hidden steel (Es e), but could be a pure self (aa).

The red/blond kits are A_ C_ ee.

The californian marked kit is A_ ch_ E_.

And the REW kit is ch_ ee, or ch_ with Vienna gene covering up the black markings.

This all assumes the buck is a misidentified agouti.

I'm not questioning your ability to identify steel. I'm just stumped as to how your doe could come up with red kits at all with a steel mate. Any chance she's been sneaking around with another buck?

--

ETA: I was just reading another thread where Diamond has a black rabbit with scattered white tipped hairs. That remnded me that hidden steels can sometimes show some ticking, just not the full steel coloring. Diamond's doe is Es ej. So, if your buck is also a partly ticked steel, he could be Es e, and not really an agouti, thus giving you the ability to produce red from steel.

 

[GBov]

A close up of his fur.



Goof Ball the buck.



This is Jet the doe.



And a close up of her hair.<br /><br />__________ Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:17 pm __________<br /><br />I think it might just be JET that we have been calling the wrong color but in our defence she was sold to us as a blue ribbon winning black and she was kept in a very dark barn so the sun didnt help show anything other than jet black. Hence her name. She really was BLACK when we got her.

 

[Dood]

Both the buck and doe are steel. The doe is what you call a "false black", I have a lot of these from crossing my steel NZ buck on my Am Chin does. The steel gene has incomplete dominance and does weird things when combined with the other coat colour genes.

There is a good article explaining it http://www.raising-rabbits.com/steel-ra ... etics.html

So your buck and doe must both be "Es e" since they produced red/fawn colored kits who must have "e e"

You mentioned you got a black kit from her. Do not sell it as such, or any future black kits from her. There is only a 25% chance it is true black "ee" and a 75% chance he is a false black that will totally screw up a black breeding program!

 

[skysthelimit]

In Rex, Red is an agouti gene, and as I understand it, steel is also an agouti gene. The two are not on the same locus, so one would not exclude the other. It is what happens when the Es gene acts on the agouti rings. Having the Es gene not interfering with having an agouti A gene.

Steel chestnut agouti http://www.minkhollow.ca/MHF/doku.php?i ... t_genetics

 

[TerriG]

Your close up on kits look just.like.mine! I thought it was a first (hmmm, I don't remember uploading pics of my kits. duh!). I have a kit like your white one and a kit like your tan/buff/fawn (not sure what to call it). Mine came out of a Black Tort and a Palomino. I'll try to take some pics later today.

 

[Dood]

Tort and palomino both have the recessive version "ee" so ALL kits from this pairing will have non-extension. Both parents also both "C cchl " assuming your white pointed bunny doesn't have pink/red eyes.