Sex change fairy? (split penis findings perhaps)

[Zass]

Anyone remember that the buck I used for line breeding had an abnormal penis?

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Of course, I didn't realize his penis was odd until after the breedings.
Why didn't I check? because I'd never had or seen a buck with a weird penis before. Lets call it inexperience with that particular possibility. (everyone, if your going to borrow a buck, check his penis)

The total kits I got from him were 12:
5 v-lops, and 7 in a mix breed litter. (I like to use my very genetically pure Lilac doe to test breed bucks, it was very helpful, as now I know that buck carried a recessive copy of both dilute and chocolate)

Only one kit was an obvious buckling between 6-9 weeks. It was a mixed breed. 1 buck and 11 does. What are the odds, right?

At 9 weeks, as I'm butchering the mix-breeds for meat, I notice at least one of those doelings isn't a doe. :shock: More then one kit had testes on the inside. There should have been only 1 buck.

Now, believe it or not, the sex change fairy has passed me by up to this point.
I haven't had one single kit switch genders. A buck is a buck and a doe is a doe.

Today we had another odd occurrence. Mucky, usually so calm and level, flipped out and started grunting and mounting one of her 10 week old babies! SHe was also honking and running circles in her cage!?
Now Mucky actually has a LONG history of mounting does, so it isn't a surprise. The grunting and honking and running in circles are a different story. She's only ever acted like that when I had her in with a buck.

So, I take out the kit that she was mounting and check it's gender. Still looks like a doe, if it has a penis it isn't extending yet. Still a taco.

BUT IT SMELLS LIKE A BUCK. :shock: :shock:

You know what I'm taking about. That skunky buck-smell. I can only guess that smell is what made Mucky think there was a buck in her pen.

So, now I have to wonder. Are my doelings actually doelings at all?

I've decided to separate that kit for fear of accidental breeding, and to keep Mucky calm. I guess all I can do is check back in a few weeks to see if it's still looking like a doe. :shrug:

It it proves to be a buck. I would have discovered that the gene that causes splits (at least in this case) seems to only require one copy and can be passed directly from a buck to his offspring. Since I also had "taco" bucks in my mix-breed litter from a "not even distantly related" Lilac doe who has never before thrown "iffy" kits.

Overall, it re-enforces my decision that these rabbits are totally unsellable. If I want to work with them further I'm going to have to accept that there will be a lot of adorable bunnies heading to freezer camp as I work through the piles of strange genes they carry. I raise meat rabbits, but I wonder if I'm really thick skinned enough for something like this.

 

[ladysown]

think perhaps less of a needing to be thick skinned as more of.. Preventing disasters for other people.

Sorry you got hit by the split penis gene... NOT FUN.

 

[Zass]

Well, these guys have unexpected curls, a tendency towards balding, and ambiguous genders. :lol: They really shouldn't be kept on wire. I haven't had sore hocks yet, but when I saw the fur rubbed off Mucky's feet I took her off wire permanently. Others with astrex coated rabbits have also noticed a tendency for the hair on their feet to rub off easily.

I saw a buck with such genes who has bald shoulders from his ears rubbing the fur off. I would have thought mites, but apparently, that person had taken the rabbit to the vet and he was diagnosed mite-free.

This all kind of makes perfect sense when you think about it. One of the reasons I've read that breeding programs for astrex rabbits were dropped was because the pelts DIDN'T HOLD UP TO TANNING. In other words...the hair rubs off or falls out easily...Either that, or it loses it curl when tanned. The latter seems less likely, because Mucky's fur became curlier when wetted and has stayed that way for...about a month.

I wouldn't sell or even give away one of these genetic nightmares, but I am considering line breeding further in an effort to create a line without these unwanted genetic problems. I know how it's done, but I'm not sure if I have the will to create and kill so many of the most adorable and good natured bunnies I've ever met.

 

[akane]

Actually I found in some lines of smaller breeds, I'm not sure exactly which side it came from, that the penis looks off and get mistaken as does until nearing breeding age. Maybe it's all a mild form of split penis but I never promised gender on those guys under 3months, preferably 4. Future rabbits of better quality did not have that issue. As difficult as my tiny netherlands with their tiny little specks for genitals are they are still much easier.

 

[skysthelimit]

Split penis is an interesting topic. So far, most say that it only takes one gene. Conventional wisdom is to cull all does from the litter, and keep bucks that are normal. Supposedly, if the buck is normal, he can't carry the gene because he wouldn't be normal. But a doe could carry it, because she's already split, how would you know? In my case, it was the does ped, known producers. The first time around I culled the dam and all the doe kits. It wasn't the buck, he was normal, and all his previous kits were too. Gone.

The next time, totally different line, and I didn't check the buck after 6 mos. I wondered why it took so long for the doe with him to get pregnant. He had a split penis, and the resulting buck from the litter has a split as well.

In your case you know it's from the buck.

I've only had one SCF very recently. Before that, I had ambiguous buns I couldn't tell at 6 mos. That was from the split penis litter.

 

[Zass]

Split penis is an interesting topic. So far, most say that it only takes one gene. Conventional wisdom is to cull all does from the litter, and keep bucks that are normal. Supposedly, if the buck is normal, he can't carry the gene because he wouldn't be normal. But a doe could carry it, because she's already split, how would you know? In my case, it was the does ped, known producers. The first time around I culled the dam and all the doe kits. It wasn't the buck, he was normal, and all his previous kits were too. Gone.

The next time, totally different line, and I didn't check the buck after 6 mos. I wondered why it took so long for the doe with him to get pregnant. He had a split penis, and the resulting buck from the litter has a split as well.

In your case you know it's from the buck.

I've only had one SCF very recently. Before that, I had ambiguous buns I couldn't tell at 6 mos. That was from the split penis litter.

The real problem is that my does are all out of the malformed buck.

I do not want to try and introduce all new does because I like the temperaments and mothering ability that I have, and I have had horrible experiences paying too much money for purebred does who turned out to be nasty and had to be culled. Basically, I just don't want to spend a few generations with idiot does culling for temperament when I already have nice does. What I learned with the silverfox is that there is nothing like having mean or stupid does to make rabbit raising "not fun"

The other fear, is a worry that others does may not be genetically any better than mine.

Seems like every new rabbit has SOMETHING wrong with it, and I'm really good at finding that something that others may never notice. (Like the steel genes hidden under the SF self coat, or a not-so-obvious split in a buck who has fathered 6 litters that I know of, the undescended testicle in that beautiful black NZ, the white toenail on that SF I paid all that money to have shipped up here) The only "perfect" rabbit I have is that nice Lilac doe that I paid meat price for, and no one ever wants!

I have found a really good V-lop buck to bring in. I plan on doing some line breeding to improve type and coat. I'm afraid I'll need to try to get rid of the astrex genes along the way if I want to make hardier rabbits.

If I cull all does who throw splits and split bucks for several generations I still won't know if I've totally gotten rid of the split genes in the does. I could eventually offer non-split bucks to the local 4-H group and others getting into v-lops for showing, but never does. It could theoretically be passed to just does for many, many generations. The only way to get rid of it fully is to cull all does and keep only perfect bucks.

It's not an option for me at this time, but I'll have to keep it in mind for when the opportunity comes along to replace my all does with equally nice tempered ones.

 

[ilovehome]

Are you totally sure that penis is split? I had elops that I thought were split when they were between 12 and 16 weeks, but they have turned out to be normal. I know this now because I had a French lop with a truly split penis, and the split continued down the shaft. Sometimes, that diamond shape at the tip when they are maturing can look like a split when it is not. Have you seen these pics before: http://hillriserabbitry.blogspot.com/20 ... l?spref=fb (Scroll down the page for split penis pics.) I think your pic looks similar to some she is states are normal. I just wanted to put this out there because I was too quick to dispatch some of my elops, I think.

 

[Zass]

Are you totally sure that penis is split? I had elops that I thought were split when they were between 12 and 16 weeks, but they have turned out to be normal. I know this now because I had a French lop with a truly split penis, and the split continued down the shaft. Sometimes, that diamond shape at the tip when they are maturing can look like a split when it is not. Have you seen these pics before: http://hillriserabbitry.blogspot.com/20 ... l?spref=fb (Scroll down the page for split penis pics.) I think your pic looks similar to some she is states are normal. I just wanted to put this out there because I was too quick to dispatch some of my elops, I think.

Actually, I'm not really sure. I don't think anyone I asked was able to give me 100% definite "Yep, thats a split,"
but most agreed it did look odd.

I am pretty sure I have bucklings that are dead ringers for does at 10 weeks, and I know that's not good.


If I bring in the new buck and don't see any splits or "ambiguous kits" at all through several litters and several generations of line breeding, I'll probably just forget about the whole thing and work on removing the curly coated rabbits. The curls are cute, but I don't think velveteens are the best breed to work towards curliness. A very small, very lightweight and strait eared rabbit would be better, to minimize the risk of rubbing the abnormally delicate fur off the feet and shoulders.