Seven dead and one MIA

[Frecs]

Went out this morning to check on the new popples and found seven dead in the nest. I could not (and still can not) find the 8th. Actually, I convinced myself that five were still holding on to life so I did the "warm them in the dryer" trick...but, they were definitely dead.

Two of the kits had blood pools under them. They were all scattered around the nestbox...I had to dig through fur and hay for some of them.

I am so upset. I know from reading rabbittalk that "stuff happens"...it is still frustrating and upsetting and a bit discouraging. This was my second litter (Jumpp's first) and both have resulted in all or most of the kits dying (we saved two from Country Mile's first litter). I keep telling myself that CM and Jumpp and I are all learning and it will get better but it doesn't make it easier. Could there be something I'm doing wrong or failing to do that is contributing to this pattern?

 

[ZRabbits]

Wish I could truly help, but know others who are more experienced could give you some info on what happened. Could Jumpp have gotten scared? She is a first time Mom and with First Time Moms you really don't know how they will react with kits.

So sorry. I know it's discouraging and truly sad when this "stuff" happens. I don't think you are doing anything wrong.

Karen

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Blood pools and one MIA makes me think of some kind of predator...rats maybe?

 

[Frecs]

Blood pools and one MIA makes me think of some kind of predator...rats maybe?

That thought crossed my mind but I can't imagine how it would have gotten into the cage to get into the nestbox. I mean, I know they are amazingly agile but :shock: :shock:

Would she have eaten it??<br /><br />__________ Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:16 am __________<br /><br />If it was a rat...how do I deal with that?

 

[jollysrabbits]

a friend of mine said she found a rat in one of her cages that got in through an empty "J". Feeder because she had no lids on them.

 

[Frecs]

a friend of mine said she found a rat in one of her cages that got in through an empty "J". Feeder because she had no lids on them.

My J-feeders don't have lids but they were not empty...

I've read on the boards here that rats can fit through the typical wire used for cages (mine are from Bass Equipment)...the thought makes me sick...and very concerned for my rabbits. It seems to me there are easier food targets in my yard than kits in a nestbox -- I have chickens laying eggs and ducks roosting in trees...

I can't stand the idea of a rat getting to my rabbits...what can I do???? :shock: :evil:

 

[avdpas77]

A thought if it might help anyone. I use crocks for my rabbits until the kits start coming out of the box. I can keep crocks clean easier, but they don't work so well for kits, who love to lay (and defecate) in them, plus they won't hold enough feed for a bunch of >= 4 week old kits and a doe.

AS I don't want to cut a hole in the side of my cage, I clip the J feeders inside. The trouble with that is that the kits will jump up and lay in the top. Not having tops/lids handy, what I found works is to take an 8" piece of 2" x 4" scrap cage wire narrower than the feeder and bend it into a "U". This can be placed, ends down, into the feeder (U sticking up) and it works fine. The feed pours right though it. Don't know if that would work here, but since most of us keep wire scraps around, maybe it would be a quick fix.

I use hanging cages, and it would be hard for a rat to crawl down the wire, though I think a mouse could. A rat can go through a 2" x 4" opening.

There is a possibility that the kits died from exposure, lack of feeding or something along those lines and the doe ate the first kit and then gave up cleaning the nest when she realized all were dead.

I don't think you could have done anything different. Sometimes these things happen, especially with new does. Last month I had a new doe deliver a beautiful litter of 8. She had just finished delivering them and there was only a thin layer of fur on top. I left for work thinking she would pull more fur. She didn't. They were all dead from being chilled by the time I got home. 3 days ago she delivered again..... I was ready with a bunch of extra fur to cover them this time..but she filled the box full. They are all doing great. One can just do their best and learn from their mistakes. Sometimes we don't even have the luxury of knowing if something was a mistake or not.

Hang in there.

 

[Frecs]

A thought if it might help anyone. I use crocks for my rabbits until the kits start coming out of the box. I can keep crocks clean easier, but they don't work so well for kits, who love to lay (and defecate) in them, plus they won't hold enough feed for a bunch of >= 4 week old kits and a doe.

AS I don't want to cut a hole in the side of my cage, I clip the J feeders inside. The trouble with that is that the kits will jump up and lay in the top. Not having tops/lids handy, what I found works is to take an 8" piece of 2" x 4" scrap cage wire narrower than the feeder and bend it into a "U". This can be placed, ends down, into the feeder (U sticking up) and it works fine. The feed pours right though it. Don't know if that would work here, but since most of us keep wire scraps around, maybe it would be a quick fix.

I use hanging cages, and it would be hard for a rat to crawl down the wire, though I think a mouse could. A rat can go through a 2" x 4" opening.

There is a possibility that the kits died from exposure, lack of feeding or something along those lines and the doe ate the first kit and then gave up cleaning the nest when she realized all were dead.

I don't think you could have done anything different. Sometimes these things happen, especially with new does. Last month I had a new doe deliver a beautiful litter of 8. She had just finished delivering them and there was only a thin layer of fur on top. I left for work thinking she would pull more fur. She didn't. They were all dead from being chilled by the time I got home. 3 days ago she delivered again..... I was ready with a bunch of extra fur to cover them this time..but she filled the box full. They are all doing great. One can just do their best and learn from their mistakes. Sometimes we don't even have the luxury of knowing if something was a mistake or not.

Hang in there.

Thanks for your post avdpas77! I started with my cages as hanging but they shook too much (I have Silver Foxes) so they are not supported by sitting on PVC pipes. The cages are Bass Equipment with are made with 1"x2" 14 gauge wire. I just don't see a rat getting through that...mice yes, rat??? I have heard folks say it but it boggles my mind.

I "think" what happened was this: she delivered on the wire. I found them, tried to make a nest in the nestbox, put the kits in the nestbox and since she was jumping in and out of the box at that point, I figured she would finish getting them covered and warm. She and I both failed those kits. I should have not presumed she would do something and gone ahead and done it myself. I also think the blood is more likely from the kit that I had to wiggle out of the wire...it was injured but I didn't realize it -- she did and tried to deal with it but then perhaps that freaked her out and she left the rest to die?? That's my assessment but then I am still learning about rabbits and rabbit behavior. This has been a difficult learning experience for my does and myself to say the least.

 

[avdpas77]

I actually mis-spoke when I said 2" x 4". I meant 1" x 2" A mouse can squeeze through a 1/4 inch crack under a door. A rat can go through 1" x 2" (unless, I guess it is exceptionally fat)

In my own experience I have found too much "help" is worse than none at all. Young does are doing all this from instinct the first time. They could easily pick up a kit outside the nest box and return it, but they have no instinct to do that (like a cat would) nor do they have other experienced does to learn from. In the normally short lifespan of a wild European rabbit, it is doubtful if a doe ever lives long enough to impart that learning to other does, if it is possible for them to learn anyway.

Most does do seem to get much better at it the second time, but I am not sure if that is truly because of learning or simply that the instinct kicks in better the second time around. I am inclined to believe the latter.

Hopefully the next time, it will all come together for the doe, and you won't have any problems at all. Occasionally you will get a doe that simply never "gets" the idea of motherhood in her head, but it is not the norm.

If she was jumping in and out of the nestbox, I suspect she just didn't have a clue. Breed her again, soon. I think she will likely do fine next time.

Hopefully you don't have rats... they are rather hard to get rid of. Voles (field mice) will likely get into any rabbitry. I have made a couple of small wooden boxes (mine are about 6 x 8 x 3" high) with a 1" hold drilled in one end that I turn upside down over "bar" bait or "Decon" I keep this in the rabbitry year around. The boxes are to protect any rabbits from getting into it if they get loose on the floor due to accidentally not getting a cage door closed.

 

[Frecs]

That is amazing about the rats…I don’t think we have rats but I’m going to look for those “cupcakes” someone mentioned on this board to deal with them if they are around. If not a rat, there may well be other creatures of the night messing around out there.

I bred her again this morning so she’ll have another opportunity in 4 weeks.

I sure hope things turn around and start going right. It just seems like the learning curve is beating me over the head. It’s been a hard year anyway and this string of bad experiences with breeding is not helping my attitude about this year one bit. Just been a bad bad year.

 

[avdpas77]

Frecs,

For some reason, starting a new rabbitry seems to always be fraught with difficulty. Many times one isn't sure of the stock they start with, and that stock is often raised in a different environment and a different manner than the new persons. Many people start with young stock... meaning the does have no experience kindling, and the bucks have no experience mating. That is frustrating because it is likely all the rabbits will have some kind of problems before the thing gets going, and that is extremely frustrating to a person trying to get started after all the effort they have put in.

All I can say is patience, and don't give up. While I have a couple of first time does this year, I have proven does that usually always do well. That makes it a lot easier to weather the problems with the young does. As the older does are mostly doing very well. Even then, I have one older doe that has gone twice now without becoming pregnant. I hate to lose her, but she may become soup soon... I have 5 other older does doing well.

Once you get your rabbitry going, you won't be faced with all these new animal problems that you are experiencing now. Every once in a while, a new breeder gets lucky, and everything works out the first time, but in my experience it is unusual. If you are using sound husbandry principals and it sounds like you are, it is not your fault... it just takes a bit of time for the animals to get going.

If other things are going poorly also, it can be depressing. Don't let it get to you. Enjoy your rabbits (and ignore the time and money you have put into them) Try to give it a bit more time to work out.

It is similar to planting a great garden, and then having a drought. There is only so much you can do, and then you have to give nature a chance to even things out. Next year your garden may get plenty of rain, at the right time, and things will be producing like crazy.

 

[MaggieJ]

A rat can go through a 2" x 4" opening.

A rat can get through anything larger than 1" x 1". Ask me how I know.

I'd put some rat poison down in secure bait boxes. Use one of the "one bite" type. So often the does get blamed when it is really a predator like a rat or weasel.

 

[Frecs]

Frecs,

For some reason, starting a new rabbitry seems to always be fraught with difficulty. Many times one isn't sure of the stock they start with, and that stock is often raised in a different environment and a different manner than the new persons. Many people start with young stock... meaning the does have no experience kindling, and the bucks have no experience mating. That is frustrating because it is likely all the rabbits will have some kind of problems before the thing gets going, and that is extremely frustrating to a person trying to get started after all the effort they have put in.

All I can say is patience, and don't give up. While I have a couple of first time does this year, I have proven does that usually always do well. That makes it a lot easier to weather the problems with the young does. As the older does are mostly doing very well. Even then, I have one older doe that has gone twice now without becoming pregnant. I hate to lose her, but she may become soup soon... I have 5 other older does doing well.

Once you get your rabbitry going, you won't be faced with all these new animal problems that you are experiencing now. Every once in a while, a new breeder gets lucky, and everything works out the first time, but in my experience it is unusual. If you are using sound husbandry principals and it sounds like you are, it is not your fault... it just takes a bit of time for the animals to get going.

If other things are going poorly also, it can be depressing. Don't let it get to you. Enjoy your rabbits (and ignore the time and money you have put into them) Try to give it a bit more time to work out.

It is similar to planting a great garden, and then having a drought. There is only so much you can do, and then you have to give nature a chance to even things out. Next year your garden may get plenty of rain, at the right time, and things will be producing like crazy.

Thank you, thank you! Your kind and encouraging words were just what I needed to hear. I am trying to use sound husbandry principles...as best as I can learn to do. I did start with young stock -- it is what the breeder advised "so the rabbits have time to acclimate to your situation" so we are all learning together. I realize now why so many folks start with at least one "proven" doe. It would be very nice to have that in my rabbitry right now. Ah, well, we will persevere. I love my rabbits...they are my calm center in the midst of an often crazy life.<br /><br />__________ Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:57 pm __________<br /><br />

A rat can go through a 2" x 4" opening.

A rat can get through anything larger than 1" x 1". Ask me how I know.

I'd put some rat poison down in secure bait boxes. Use one of the "one bite" type. So often the does get blamed when it is really a predator like a rat or weasel.

Okay, well, I clearly need to figure a way to deal with whatever it is that is causing problems. I do need to do so in a way that does not put my other animals at risk. My ducks are the only other animals permitted in the rabbit area because they are good at helping clean up after the rabbits. I don't want them getting into anything toxic intended for rats or possums or voles or whatever it might be.