Self Blue or Otter?

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This baby english lop I thought was a self blue, but then it started getting the tan color on top of its feet and inside the ears. What would I call it? A miss marked Otter? I know it couldn't be used as a show rabbit, but can it be used as a brood rabbit or would it ruin the colors of future litters? I believe one of the broken blues from the same litter may also be this same color, it looks like the tan fur is showing up inside its ears as well. These pics are from a week or 2 ago, I can get updated ones if needed.
 

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This baby english lop I thought was a self blue, but then it started getting the tan color on top of its feet and inside the ears. What would I call it? A miss marked Otter? I know it couldn't be used as a show rabbit, but can it be used as a brood rabbit or would it ruin the colors of future litters? I believe one of the broken blues from the same litter may also be this same color, it looks like the tan fur is showing up inside its ears as well. These pics are from a week or 2 ago, I can get updated ones if needed.
I wouldn't call that a self. As you say, there is tan color is on the ears and the feet, and I see pretty distinct markings on the chin and belly as well. There can be quite a bit of variation in the extent of tan markings; although this is about as minimal as I've ever seen it, I'd call it a tan.

However, I don't know what's in your rabbits' background, but one interesting thing that can happen to diminish tan markings is the presence of a steel gene. A "steeled otter" looks like a self until you flip it over and find very faint, very reduced otter markings. This is Moon (her moon eye was a nest box injury, not part of the color issue) :
Moon.JPG
Moon belly.jpg
Moon chin.jpg

For three generations I didn't know that Moon carried steel (it certainly did not appear in her pedigree, and steel is not recognized in Satins), which was causing this mismarking that we called "tweeners," and appeared in roughly half of her offspring. But when I crossed Moon's self black granddaughter with an agouti, the mystery was solved when I got this:
Black GTS side view 4 wks.JPG
Black GTS belly 14 wks.JPG
What we learned was that steel only expresses properly when paired with an aguoti <A>. It makes "tweeners" when paired with tan <at> and when combined with self <a> it can hide completely, or it can express as a faint haze of gold tips on the black, like this (from left to right is "self steel," self black, and gold-tipped steel):
Inked Self Steel.jpg
 
Ooo, very interesting, thanks! The dam is a self blue and the sire is a broken blue otter, and as far as I can tell there is no steel stated in either of their pedigrees, but as you were able to prove it can hide pretty well. I'm still learning what's excepted colors in English lops, but steel is a very pretty color! If I can get my hands on an agouti in the future it may be a fun breeding test to try.
So, what should I call the baby in its pedigree? Steeled otter? Tan? If I sell it to a breeder I'll definitely disclose to them about the possible genetics going on with its color.
 
Ooo, very interesting, thanks! The dam is a self blue and the sire is a broken blue otter, and as far as I can tell there is no steel stated in either of their pedigrees, but as you were able to prove it can hide pretty well. I'm still learning what's excepted colors in English lops, but steel is a very pretty color! If I can get my hands on an agouti in the future it may be a fun breeding test to try.
So, what should I call the baby in its pedigree? Steeled otter? Tan? If I sell it to a breeder I'll definitely disclose to them about the possible genetics going on with its color.
Except for Holland Lops, all the lop breeds in the U.S. (French, English and Mini) share a common color standard. Steel is accepted in the lops in both gold- and silver-tipped, in most base colors (black, blue, chocolate, lilac, sable and smoke pearl) under the Ticked Group (which also includes silver/silver fox).

If it was me, I'd call it an otter on the pedigree, since it definitely displays that pattern, and you don't want to put something on a pedigree unless you know for sure. Like I mentioned, there can be quite a wide range of the otter markings; for example, some of my otters have no eye circles. You could add a note to the effect that the markings are reduced and you suspect the possibility of steel, but I wouldn't call it steel unless I knew that to be a fact.
 
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Except for Holland Lops, all the lop breeds (French, English and Mini) share a common color standard. Steel is accepted in the lops in both gold- and silver-tipped, in most base colors (black, blue, chocolate, lilac, sable and smoke pearl) under the Ticked Group (which also includes silver/silver fox).

If it was me, I'd call it an otter on the pedigree, since it definitely displays that pattern, and you don't want to put something on a pedigree unless you know for sure. Like I mentioned, there can be quite a wide range of the otter markings; for example, some of my otters have no eye circles. You could add a note to the effect that the markings are reduced and you suspect the possibility of steel, but I wouldn't call it steel unless I knew that to be a fact.
Thank you so much! This is my first time handling the tan gene, so still learning. I really appreciate the time you've taken to explain this.
 
and when combined with self <a> it can hide completely, or it can express as a faint haze of gold tips on the black, like this (from left to right is "self steel," self black, and gold-tipped steel):
Are you very very sure about this?
Because as far as i know, if there is no agouti gene to cause agouti bands, the steel gene could nothing do to let them appear.
It only narrows the agouti band in several degrees up to its disappearement.
The ones with single agouti hairs i once had have been ESe ones.
 
I do find it fascinating how some genes that should not be expressed still manage to make their presence known. My first thought is harlequin, which as a recessive to E full-extension should not be expressed, yet it often ends up affecting the color, causing "harlequinized" color.

The chart at A/E Gene Combinations does not mention the slight tipping of the self steel, but it would not surprise me. I agree that without agouti, it seems like steel changes to the agouti hairshaft couldn't happen, but genetics sure aren't as black and white as we'd like, there always seems to be more questions than answers sometimes.
 
Nothing surprising with eJ. Its not really an rezessive mutation.
Its in fact a dominant mutation similar to ES.
Similar to tricolor cats, which due to x inactivation have the yellow gene in some cells and the black one in the other ones, eJ causes ES like receptors in the dark cells whereas the light on has no receptors at al.
Which leads to the strange behavior of eJ.
The dark parts look like ES and show the same dominance, whereas the light ones look like in e rabbits.
More over, in homozygous eJeJ there is no smut or torting, no matter if combined with A, at or aa.extension receptor.png
 
Are you very very sure about this?
Because as far as i know, if there is no agouti gene to cause agouti bands, the steel gene could nothing do to let them appear.
It only narrows the agouti band in several degrees up to its disappearement.
The ones with single agouti hairs i once had have been ESe ones.
Yes, I'm as as sure as one can be when dealing with the E series. :LOL: We've messed with harlies in our Mini Rex, but I have no reason whatsoever to believe that there is harlequin in Moon's or any of my Satin lines. Most of my pedigrees go back 10 or more generations and there was ample time for harlequin to show up back there, when the breeders were still using agoutis as well as selfs, and I've been using the agoutis again recently for several generations, with no hints of harlequin. People do all sorts of inexplicable things, but it would be quite strange for a Satin breeder to throw a harlequin into the mix, as harlie/tricolor is not an accepted Satin color. Steel isn't an accepted Satin color, either, but Satin breeders do occasionally cross New Zealand into their lines, and NZWs here often seem to carry steel, so steel makes more sense.

Here are siblings from the litter in which I discovered the steel lurking in my Satins:
Inked Self Steel.jpg
The marked-up one is the one with the tipping. It was difficult to capture with the camera, but the gold haze is not the product of lighting or satinization; it was really there. The other two are a GTS and a self black.
Here are some more photos:
Black, Self Steel, GTS kits 4 wks.JPG
Self Steel 4 wks.JPG

Here's the backstory. In 2020 I got a doe named Moon (Mad Eye Moody on the pedigree; her moon eye was the result of a nest box injury) that we called a "tweener" because she had partial otter markings, like so:
Moon.JPGMoon belly.jpgMoon chin.jpg
We had several litters including these tweeners from that line, and have since discovered that she was actually a steeled otter. For several years I bred only selfs (many of which, it turned out, were actually self chins), then added Moon and got selfs, tweeners and otters. Three generations in, I used a white buck "Nome" (who came from a red dam and white buck that we know is genetically self blue) to breed my "self black" doe from the Moon line, and the agouti he carried opened up the steel. We got the bunnies pictured above, plus a few more self blacks. That litter solved quite a few mysteries for us.

I've attached the pedigree in question, although I can't see it on the page maybe it'll show up as a link you can open.
 
I dont think its japanese, i doubt the self genes. I have not much experience with steel beside some nearly black ESe rabbits, but my understanding of molecular biology prevents me from thinking an aa rabbit can show any sign of steel because without agouti signaling protein there should not be able any agouti coloring...
There is also this dominant black ED, f.e. there are black checkered giants in lines with only (spotted or not) black ones which was in fact agouti based.
So its not so easy to tell, if there is agouti in a mix or not.
 
I dont think its japanese, i doubt the self genes. I have not much experience with steel beside some nearly black ESe rabbits, but my understanding of molecular biology prevents me from thinking an aa rabbit can show any sign of steel because without agouti signaling protein there should not be able any agouti coloring...
There is also this dominant black ED, f.e. there are black checkered giants in lines with only (spotted or not) black ones which was in fact agouti based.
So its not so easy to tell, if there is agouti in a mix or not.
At this point I've done so many crosses with my selfs that I am pretty confident that's what they are. Some of what I used to consider "selfs" are actually self chinchilla <aaB_C_D_E_> or self squirrel (blue chinchilla <aaB_C_ddE_>), but I've known who those are ever since a cross with a "blue" Satin and a NZW in 2017 produced an entire litter of chins, and opened up that can of worms.

I have no experience with <Ed>, but my understanding is that it is exceedingly rare in the U.S other than in some Checkered Giants, and that <Ed> can produce agoutis when bred to true selfs (which I have never seen in my rabbits... yet!).

I also haven't had anything to do with the molecular basis of genetics for nearing two decades, so I can't comment on the likelihood of a gold haze appearing on a self steel other than to say that's what appears to have happened. And to reiterate someone's advice to "never say never," which seems particularly applicable to discussions of genetic expression! 🤣

I don't do that cross intentionally, but that's the only kit with that gold haze I've seen, so it's at least unusual. I would certainly like to understand better how it came about.

There's always something surprising waiting around the corner, and that's actually one of the things I love about rabbit coat colors. :)
 
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There is also this dominant black ED, f.e. there are black checkered giants in lines with only (spotted or not) black ones which was in fact agouti based.
ED hasn't been proven to exist, and a molecular study was unable to distinguish between ED and ES, so it may just be the way ES interacts with agouti that 'suggests' a dominant black gene.
Mutations in the melanocortin 1 receptor (MC1R) gene are associated with coat colours in the domestic rabbit (Oryctolagus cuniculus)
 
Molecularbiology
The Receptor called MC1R (see graphic) is causing the pigment type switching.
  • If the receptor signals, dark eumelanin is produced.
  • If there is no signal, light pheomelanin is produced.
  • Normally the ubiquitous MSH (blue square in the graphic, melanocyte stimulating hormone) is connected to the receptor causing signaling -> dark pigment
  • spatial/temporal ASIP (green triangle, Agouti signal protein) is produced, which has a stronger binding ability, so it replaces MSH and binds to the receptor, preventing signaling -> light pigment
  • e produces a receptor with 10 missing proteins rendering it (at least partly) nonfunctional.
  • ED produces a receptor with 2 missing proteins rendering it (over)active
  • eJ produces a receptor with 1 substituted and 2 missing proteins rendering it (over)active and only working in some parts of the skin (this differentiation occurs in early development and is inherited on proliferation). The mutation is on a similar place of the adjacent transdomain part of MC1R.
  • Messenger RNA (needed to build receptors) was found in dark hair skin regions only. A composite six bp in-frame deletion in the melanocortin 1 receptor (MC1R) gene is associated with the Japanese brindling coat colour in rabbits (Oryctolagus cuniculus) - BMC Genomic Data
ED
ED hasn't been proven to exist, and a molecular study was unable to distinguish between ED and ES
They wrote it may be ED or ES. They found one mutation and dont know which one it is. But if you look at the rabbits which are found to carry the mutation in this and other Fontanesi papers, yo will find them all self colored (californian, black/blue checkered giant, white giant, new zealand white, black/blue dutch), there is no one probed which actually shows ES, so yes one could not know...
I provided samples from ESE rabbits, but i think unfortunately they are still not yet fully sequenced.
I know from one ES sample, where the same mutation as in the black rabbits was found, but this sequencing only includes the DNA part where this mutation resides. The rest of the receptor DNA was not sequenced. So you could guess it may be the same, but it could be as well as with f.e. himi and chinchilla.
Himi occured first and chinchilla later. Both have the same mutation, but chinchilla has an additional one causing the chinchilla coloration. Tyrosinase gene variants in different rabbit strains - PubMed

From Robinson, Genetic studies of the rabbit (1958) citing Punnet:
The two dominant alleles ED and ES tend to reduce and eliminate the agouti banding and darken the white belly, the top dominant ED being the more effective of the two (PUNNET 1930).
...
The ED gene was discovered by PUNNET (1912, 1915) and it is fully dominant in every combination with lower alleles, with the sole exception of EDE, which is an agouti-black.
ED appeared earlier, ES later.

Isn't there a US breed with blue, red and white color which brings this colors only (maybe also black?), but no agouti? This could fairly good be caused by ED.
 
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Molecularbiology
The Receptor called MC1R (see graphic) is causing the pigment type switching.
  • If the receptor signals, dark eumelanin is produced.
  • If there is no signal, light pheomelanin is produced.
  • Normally the ubiquitous MSH (blue square in the graphic, melanocyte stimulating hormone) is connected to the receptor causing signaling -> dark pigment
  • spatial/temporal ASIP (green triangle, Agouti signal protein) is produced, which has a stronger binding ability, so it replaces MSH and binds to the receptor, preventing signaling -> light pigment
  • e produces a receptor with 10 missing proteins rendering it (at least partly) nonfunctional.
  • ED produces a receptor with 2 missing proteins rendering it (over)active
  • eJ produces a receptor with 1 substituted and 2 missing proteins rendering it (over)active and only working in some parts of the skin (this differentiation occurs in early development and is inherited on proliferation). The mutation is on a similar place of the adjacent transdomain part of MC1R.
  • Messenger RNA (needed to build receptors) was found in dark hair skin regions only. A composite six bp in-frame deletion in the melanocortin 1 receptor (MC1R) gene is associated with the Japanese brindling coat colour in rabbits (Oryctolagus cuniculus) - BMC Genomic Data
Very helpful summary of the receptor basis of the coloration, thank you! I especially liked the description of the action of <ej>.
The summary is concise enough for me to ask some questions. :)
For instance, where does <Es> fit into this scheme? Is there similar information about <Es> regarding its protein deletions or substitutions?
ED

They wrote it may be ED or ES. They found one mutation and dont know which one it is. But if you look at the rabbits which are found to carry the mutation in this and other Fontanesi papers, yo will find them all self colored (californian, black/blue checkered giant, white giant, new zealand white, black/blue dutch), there is no one probed which actually shows ES, so yes one could not know...
I provided samples from ESE rabbits, but i think unfortunately they are still not yet fully sequenced.
I know from one ES sample, where the same mutation as in the black rabbits was found, but this sequencing only includes the DNA part where this mutation resides. The rest of the receptor DNA was not sequenced. So you could guess it may be the same, but it could be as well as with f.e. himi and chinchilla.
Himi occured first and chinchilla later. Both have the same mutation, but chinchilla has an additional one causing the chinchilla coloration. Tyrosinase gene variants in different rabbit strains - PubMed

From Robinson, Genetic studies of the rabbit (1958) citing Punnet:

ED appeared earlier, ES later.
I believe I understand that your argument lies not only with the E series, but rather an <Ed> possibly hiding an <A_>. But I cannot reconcile an <A_ Ed_> genotype with the ancestry I know and the offspring I see in my rabbits.

I am as reasonably sure as possible (given my never say never rule :)) that I know which rabbits are agouti, and I have no reason to believe that <Ed> gene factors into my line at all. I've never, in 15 years of breeding these particular Satins, had an unexpected agouti show up, other than the chinchillas from the self squirrel x NZW cross, which was explained satisfactorily and backed up by all subsequent breedings. All of my self chins and self squirrels produce exactly what they "should" given their agouti status, when bred to either another self, a tan <at> or another agouti. My <at a> otters, even from the Moon line which carries <Es>, produce exactly what they "should" when bred to a self or to an agouti...except for the bunny with the gold haze, of course, which could be the exception that proves your argument. (Unfortunately for this discussion, I did not keep that rabbit and cannot use it for test breeding.)

If I understand correctly, you suspect that the self black dam of the bunny with the gold haze might be <Ed> rather than <Es>. But I can't understand why <Ed> would have hidden for so long with so many opportunities for it to show up, or where it would have come from, given its presumed distribution in the U.S. rabbit population.

Also - if the dam was <Ed>, I still don't understand why pairing her with an agouti buck would produce a <A_ Es> kit that looked like that gold-hazed kit. It should look like a GTS, yes? What do you think the genotype of the gold haze kit is? Is that what <A_ Ed_> would look like? I thought <Ed> individuals were completely black. I am more and more mystified by this animal.

Isn't there a US breed with blue, red and white color which brings this colors only (maybe also black?), but no agouti? This could fairly good be caused by ED.
I think you might be referring to the Rhinelander. Given its breed development using both the Harlequin <A_ ej_> and the Checkered Giant (possibly <aa Ed_>), it surely seems possible (and might be a sensible approach) that some Rhinelander individuals are of an <Ed> genotype. Although, the U.S. Rhinelander breed club makes no mention of solid black sports, but only charlies and solid-colored brindled rabbits of brown and orange. Curiously, black is not mentioned in this context. See History of the Rhinelander – Rhinelander Rabbit Club of America

I cannot really imagine any reason whatsoever to cross either of those giant breeds into a line of purebred Satins, while acknowledging that people do some strange things anyway!

I still have the gold-hazed bunny's dam; in fact she is one of my top producers. According to her pedigree and her offsping, I deduce that she's <aaBBCchDDEsE>. She's been bred with the following bucks:
- self-based, dilute REW <aaB_ccddE_> = self blacks, himis (2 litters)
- blue otter heterozygous for self <ataBBCCddE_> = self blacks, black otters, black himis, martenized black himis (2 litters)
- agouti-based REW <AaB_ccddEe> = self blacks, GTS, himis, and "gold haze" (1 litter)

The bucks' genotypes are also derived using both their pedigrees and their offspring with various does.

UPDATE: I communicated with the president of the Rhinelander Rabbit Club of America and she reports: "No we do not get solid blacks, our sports are black and orange or blue and fawn with little to no white. Occasionally we get one that appears solid black, but there is always some orange mixed in. Occasionally we get some that would be considered showable as a harlequin."

So it doesn't sound like <Ed> is a factor in the Rhinelanders here anyway.
 
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I believe I understand that your argument lies not only with the E series, but rather an <Ed> possibly hiding an <A_>.
more in the ES not able to show on aa :)

I think you might be referring to the Rhinelander.
no, no, this are 3 colors as different unicolored rabbits, not a multicolored one.
I think it has to do with 3 colors in the US flag which are the 3 colors this breed can appear in (but not as agouti).

- agouti-based REW <AaB_ccddEe> = self blacks, GTS, himis, and "gold haze" (1 litter)
at least there is an e, but i dont know if aaESe could look like your gold haze.


This one was from a Lutino shadow to red satin cross. Which brought me to the assumtion the shadow was ESe (red ones in the litter too).
 
at least there is an e, but i dont know if aaESe could look like your gold haze.
Now, I'm confused. Are you saying that a steel gene in a self-colored rabbit could still have an effect on phenotype?
 
Not really, i am trying to find something which may cause red independently of agouti. Normally ESe rabbits are black or nearly black.
But there are a lot of things one can only speculate about.

F.e. yellow mice may have dark hair tips (normally they are entirely yellow, i cannot remember if due to AY or to missing MC1R). This may be caused by melanocytes populating the new hair bulb from stem cells. Dividing cells have a certain kind of signalling similar to the MC1R signaling/causing similar effects (mice melanocytes growing in culture are normally black and ASIP is inhibiting proliferation). This might be enough to promote eumelanin synthesis initially, until the signalling dies away as the cells stop dividing. (some scientists told me so)

Some sort of review regarding known rabbit genes: Luca Fontanesi, Rabbit Genetic Resources Can Provide Several Animal Models to Explain at the Genetic Level the Diversity of Morphological and Physiological Relevant Traits (2021)
 
no, no, this are 3 colors as different unicolored rabbits, not a multicolored one.
I think it has to do with 3 colors in the US flag which are the 3 colors this breed can appear in (but not as agouti).
Hmm, I can't think what that would be. The American comes in blue and white; the Beveren in black, blue, and white; and the New Zealand in black, blue, broken, red and white, with the blue recognized in 2016, and the broken in 2010.
more in the ES not able to show on aa :)

at least there is an e, but i dont know if aaESe could look like your gold haze.


This one was from a Lutino shadow to red satin cross. Which brought me to the assumption the shadow was ESe (red ones in the litter too).
AH-HAH! I finally get it! The full-extension <Es> battling with the non-extension <e> in a gene series known for its co-dominance!

Yes, yes, yes, I see now that the gold-haze bunny could easily have been <A_B_C_D_Ese>. Given the parents' genotypes, even the ratios in the litter - several selfs, himis, one GTS and one gold-haze - make sense.

THANK YOU! :D
 
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