Second opinion on a kit/nursing/breeding question (URGENT)

[sommrluv]

I posted in another thread that both of my new (to me) dutches kindled yesterday and we have four kits a piece. I'm under the impression they have each had one successful litter before.

One is doing beautifully...made her nest early, had her kits in the nest box, and the babes are fairly bulging with milk. the other pushed the box out of the way and had her kits in the corner of her cage. I moved them inside the next box carefully, and she seems to have ignored them since. She was hopping around weirdly so late night we removed all the soiled newspaper in the rear and under the box from the birth (didn't know to do that)

this morning they were SO wrinkled they looked like raisens. A friend who gives me poultry advice said to hold the doe down and put the kits on her one at time and let them try to nurse. It will make her milk come in if it had not already. It sounded odd but Ive nursed baby rabbits before and it's not a blast, so I did it. She didn't like it much and the babies are still wrinkly but better looking.

I think the issue is that she's not drinking much. Yesterday afternoon I saw the water level hadn't changed (I make a mental note of everyones, when we had one issue with a ball not working in the other does cage the week we got her. Now I check the balls twice a day and look at water levels). We had given her a different style waterer so I put a second one in with the ball and not the little switch licky thingey (that's the proper name, I'm sure)

She isn't eating anything but the calf manna I give her. Not much kibs, not any hay, ignored treats and plans but ate some zucchini. In just a few hours the kits were wrinkled again, I guess they have not gotten much from her. This is what I was told to do, and I'm hesitant. Hold her down and let them nurse again for as long as they can nurse. Wipe them down with wet paper towels (stimulate the pee/poop as well) and put them in with the other does kits. Take the entire box (including the other does kits) to her twice a day and she should jump in and nurse them immediately for a short while because I "made" her milk come in. I guess that's to give everyone the best chance possible. He said to just do this for a week or so.

He also said take her over to the buck and breed her immediately, and than I'll know if she's just a crappy mom or it was a one-off. She's been NASTY and the other girl has become her lovely self again. With as nice as my bucks are (they act like dogs...come over, lick my face, rub their hands against my hands) I am not having a lot of desire to keep nasty does.


Should I do this? Is it wise? It seems odd. I guess it doesn't matter if the babies inherit the meaner traits as they are for meat.

I'd love an opinion. I think my 'good' mom nurses in the nest few hours.

 

[Cattle Cait]

In my opinion...

I wouldn't rebreed her right away unless this litter dies. Growing a litter of babies inside her won't help her milk production at all. If this litter does die, go ahead and breed her right away. If she turns out to be mean AND a bad mama on her second litter, axe her.

 

[MaggieJ]

If the "good mom" will nurse all eight, it will give the wrinkled ones a boost that may carry them through until the situation stabilizes. I don't know much about Dutch rabbits, but with my meat mutts I would not hesitate to give all the kits to the good mom if she will take them. I kind of have the feeling though that Dutch litters are usually smaller... You will know more about this than I do.

Your "bad mom" sounds clueless and inexperienced. Is this her first litter? If you foster the kits or if they die, you can rebreed her, but I would not do it otherwise for the reasons that Cattle Cait has already listed. many clueless first time moms do much better the second time. If not, you can always cull her later.

 

[ladysown]

holding a doe over kits can help them learn what to do when they are full. some does just get sore teats and don't want to let the kits nurse. Holding the doe over them teaches them what to do.

Granted, some does are just lousy mommas. a dutch doe should be able to carry 8 kits, but I would give the four to the first mom for one GOOD feeding (Just hold her four back). let those kits get a good feeding the healthy kits won't starve for not getting one. Then for the second feeding of the day (about 12 hours later) hold doe number two over her kits and see if she will feed them. Just see if that will kick start her.

 

[akane]

Rather than put the kits on the doe I would try to hold the doe over the kits. I've had a few where circumstances, such as moving kits to a nest box or other location, left them confused about where to feed their kits and after holding them over the nest box of wiggly kits they would pick up feeding them just fine once they figured out their kits were in the box and that standing in the box relieved the discomfort. I probably would not attempt to foster all the kits on one dutch doe at this time especially since if you don't keep trying to get the other doe to feed her kits you will never know if she can learn and raise a litter or if she's likely to kill every subsequent breeding you attempt. There's no point repeating a breeding and losing another litter if she just can't learn. If trying to hold her over the kits a couple times a day gets you nowhere and the kits are falling behind the others then I would attempt to get the kits as full as possible before combining them with the others in the hopes the good doe could take care of all of them.

 

[sommrluv]

By holding the doe over, is that literally holding her in mid-air over the box? Or setting her in the box and holding her there? She's a scratches and kicks when she is touched so I guess I'm a little nervous.

 

[eco2pia]

I would do it with her feet on the ground. If you hold her chin to the ground with your hand on her scruff, she shouldn't be able to reach you. Just take care that she isn't so freaked that she injures the kits. It may be easier to put the kits on a towel on a table, and then put her on the towel next to them, pin her chin down, and scootch the kits under once she stops fighting your hand. They should turn over on their backs and start searching for a teat when they feel her over them. They wont care that they aren't in the nest box, and you will have more elbow room.<br /><br />__________ Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:34 pm __________<br /><br />Of course, having re-read akane's suggestion, that wouldn't help mom figure out where the kits were! But still, feet on the ground I am sure. Also, fostering has been fairly easy for me, so if all else fails I would combine them with the good mom's litter--in my experience does can't count. If the two does have been housed next door to each other they may not notice a different smell even.

 

[curlysue]

I used too raise Dutch and mine usually had litters of 5 or 6 but sometimes they had more.she can raise 8.

 

[sommrluv]

I combined them with the other kits last night. At six this morning, all 8 are still alive but the bad mommy is hopping around, very friendly. I grab the more hungry looking kits and place them back in their nest box, and pop it in there, she immediately starts nursing. Since calf manna seems to be the only thing she's interested in eating, I gave her a bunch of it. She nursed for quite some time, so I hope this is the last of the trouble!

Little good mommy got extra treats for being very patient and understanding of me shuffling her children about every which way.

 

[MaggieJ]

Glad it worked out!

It sounds to me as though perhaps her milk was late coming in and that's why she had no interest in nursing sooner. First timers can be quite confused about the whole thing, but they often go on to be great moms in the long run.

 

[sommrluv]

She scratched me up good, I'm feeling a little resentment towards her. LOL...

But she's beautiful and round.

I'm going to try to get pictures today. I think they might be too many colors to all be dutches, amybe they were mixed with something else along the way.

My dutch buck is...eager. He takes his hand and shakes his cage door like he's a prisoner. I think he smells her and is lonely. If I take him out, he cuddles into me and starts to bite my shirt.<br /><br />__________ Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:34 pm __________<br /><br />I have an update.

As of this morning, all babies are doing well. They are all with the good mom and I'm taking four out of whoever looks hungriest once in the morning and once in the evening and the bad dutch mom will feed them than. If they stay with her, she will not nurse. She also will not eat much or drink if they are with her. Without them she is active, curious, and friendly. With them in the cage she curls up in the corner and bites and stomps at anyone that comes near her.



She should taste great once the babies wean.....

 

[OneAcreFarm]

She scratched me up good, I'm feeling a little resentment towards her. LOL...

I have learned the hard way...long sleeves and gloves with fingers cut off.

I have an update.

As of this morning, all babies are doing well. They are all with the good mom and I'm taking four out of whoever looks hungriest once in the morning and once in the evening and the bad dutch mom will feed them than. If they stay with her, she will not nurse. She also will not eat much or drink if they are with her. Without them she is active, curious, and friendly. With them in the cage she curls up in the corner and bites and stomps at anyone that comes near her.

She should taste great once the babies wean.....

If she makes nice babies, you could keep her and just know that you will need to foster her kits like you have been doing. I would give her a couple more tries if this is her first litter. They often will settle down for the second one.

 

[sommrluv]

I believe it's her second but I'm not positive. She seems to be only making enough milk for "baby visits" twice a day. I was reading a blog where the woman calls it 'shelf raising' and she needs to do it for a few of her does. She didn't have any interest in them last night but was very eager at six am to feed. The other doe seems to feed 3x a day.

It's amazing how BIG they are getting.

I'm just so thankful my other bun could seem to care less about me popping children in and out of her nest. I should be able to get some pictures today.


As far as the scratching, ugh. I actually started wearing leather gloves and a backwards jean jacket. She got my neck though. It's really only her and our young NZ doe that really protest about moving them. We've had them all about a month and it seems to work for me to clean the bottoms and the inside of the cages bi-weekly, scrub the water bottles with soap and vinegar bi-weekly, change the litter pans every other day, and do an all out cage scrub and wash once a month. Does that sound normal?

 

[OneAcreFarm]

As far as the scratching, ugh. I actually started wearing leather gloves and a backwards jean jacket. She got my neck though. It's really only her and our young NZ doe that really protest about moving them. We've had them all about a month and it seems to work for me to clean the bottoms and the inside of the cages bi-weekly, scrub the water bottles with soap and vinegar bi-weekly, change the litter pans every other day, and do an all out cage scrub and wash once a month. Does that sound normal?

How are you holding her? That may be part of the problem. If they feel insecure they will struggle. Also, some rabbits you just have to scruff and put a hand under their hindquarters. If she struggles, I would use this method for picking her up. Sounds good to me, but my rabbits are outside, so no pans to change and I only scrub and wash when needed.

 

[MaggieJ]

Most does only feed their kits once or twice a day. Rabbit milk is incredibly rich and a little goes a long way.