Satin rabbits in tort colors... and help? (MORE new pics)

[LPH_NY]

(See Bottom for 20 days old photos!)

For the Satin breeders who have had various tort shades in your litters... I am not sure about what I see. These kits are 6 days old. I was EXPECTING to get black torts, chocolate torts, black Siamese and chocolate Siamese... Mama is a black tort carrying chocolate, Daddy is a black Siamese carrying chocolate - they are brother and sister. She had 11 kits, of which 6 are black torts. I was wondering if you can tell me if I'm seeing a blue tort and/or a lilac tort:

^^ This pic shows the chocolate tort on bottom right. The mostly white kit on the bottom left should be a Siamese. The two kits in question are above those... one has a more bluish tint to it, the other has a more orangish tint to it.

^^ That's the whole litter... so many black torts!

(I am not breeding for show, so I know these are not recognized colors, other than the Siamese)

Edited to add: please share your satin tort and siamese kit pics if you have them, so I can compare (and drool over the satiny goodness!)

 

[Dood]

Look like sable points - aa __ cchl_ __ ee to me :shrug:

If I recal Siamese satins are genetically sallanders so perhaps this is what they are

 

[LPH_NY]

Yes, the Siamese Satins are genetically Sallanders... I'm just wondering if it's too soon to tell whether I'm looking at black, blue, chocolate or lilac? All three of the lighter ones have very different ear colors. I am impatient... was hoping for some pics of other satin torts to compare to! I was fully expecting black based and chocolate based, but didn't think it was very likely for blue or lilac, although I don't know anything beyond the kits' grandparents.

 

[sunrise]

I had two somewhat like that, could have sworn they were blue torts, but as they got older they ended up looking more like dark siamese. Since these are my first torts and siamese I'm still not totally sure what anything but black tort and normal siamese look like as young kits. Still learning, I would love to see some pictures of blue torts or blue siamese as young kits. Here are the ones I was looking at. (For some reason the picture isn't posting) will work on it.

 

[alforddm]

I don't think I've ever seen red or light colored satin kits before. They are so shiney!

 

[sunrise]

Hopefully here are the 2 pics

__________ Sun May 10, 2015 7:35 pm __________

This was my first tort satin kit, thought for sure it was a chocolate, but turned out to be a black tort :lol:

First pic is the black tort, 2nd and 3rd pics are of the kit I thought was a blue tort (along with a black tort)

 

[ottersatin]

A vast assortment of colors can suddenly appear when your breeding Satins.
This is due to the many colors that have been bred together in an attempt
to improve type. The second step is improving color. Red Satins happen to be
in high demand at times. I started with Reds, back in 1989. Have no fear,
many people interested in Pets are drawn to the Torte' varieties.
You can always eat your mistakes. I like the Otter varieties myself.
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

 

[SatinsRule]

A vast assortment of colors can suddenly appear when your breeding Satins.
This is due to the many colors that have been bred together in an attempt
to improve type. The second step is improving color. Red Satins happen to be
in high demand at times. I started with Reds, back in 1989. Have no fear,
many people interested in Pets are drawn to the Torte' varieties.
You can always eat your mistakes. I like the Otter varieties myself.
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

What he said, particularly as it pertains to the reds, is spot on. It is a variety which is trapped in its own lack of development, and it largely explains why after roughly 65 years in the breed standard, there has never been a red to take BOB or BOS at a national convention. Let that sink in for a minute. You literally are forced to work on type with colors which will produce smut or undercolor problems, which is why I am so stubborn with color as it pertains to my reds.

I honestly wish that someone out there would pursue a COD for color on torts for big satins, and get it accepted into the breed standard. It would certainly go a long way toward giving red breeders an avenue to improving their type flaws without having to slaughter entire litter after entire litter due to color snafus. If I had the means to make the next 3-5 conventions, as well as the space required to bring the project on, I would make an attempt to do so, but reality is that it's not possible for me.

 

[LPH_NY]

Today they are 15 days old. There is still a very dramatic difference between the darker Siamese and the two lighter ones. In fact, the two lighter ones have almost no dark shading on the flanks at all. They look so much like Himi, but with dark eyes.

__________ Wed May 20, 2015 10:10 pm __________

I don't think I've ever seen red or light colored satin kits before. They are so shiney!

This is the thing I adore about the satins... they are so very bright and shiny! The red one is actually chocolate tort, but it's hard to tell because the chocolate points look really smoky bluish at this age. Also at this age, they really really do feel like satin... like high quality warm satin sheets!

 

[SatinsRule]

Hang onto that red/chocolate tort. Get another red and use it to breed with. Chocolates do more to hide smut and undercolor issues than anything you'll find, and color will get you beat in a showroom in a red class faster than anything else.

 

[LPH_NY]

Hang onto that red/chocolate tort. Get another red and use it to breed with. Chocolates do more to hide smut and undercolor issues than anything you'll find, and color will get you beat in a showroom in a red class faster than anything else.

I personally don't show, but that is very useful information for me anyway. I love the reds.

 

[Schipperkesue]

I am working on Satins and am enjoying this thread immensely. Thank you all!

 

[LPH_NY]

Okay... this is driving me nuts... Is he/she REALLY black Sallander (Siamese in Satins)?

There is a black sallander kit in the background... but this guy does not look the same. His ear lacing is so much lighter and he has only the faintest shading on his rump, but it's impossible to capture on camera. He's so much whiter.

Here's a pic of him/her next to the known black sallander; kit in question is on the left:

And in this pic they are both with the chocolate sallander:

And in this pic, throw in the chocolate tort!

Although I WANT him to be blue, I can accept that he/she isn't.... but if not, why is the coloring so much lighter than on the regular black Siamese? These kits are 20 days old. I've never had any blues and I'm having a really hard time finding images of blue siamese (or blue sallander) kits that look like this. Am I crazy? Is it really just a very light black?

 

[Schipperkesue]

Hang onto that red/chocolate tort. Get another red and use it to breed with. Chocolates do more to hide smut and undercolor issues than anything you'll find, and color will get you beat in a showroom in a red class faster than anything else.

Not quite sure what smut is....have you a picture? I too am working on Red Satins, but I need to know what to avoid!

 

[SatinsRule]

Hang onto that red/chocolate tort. Get another red and use it to breed with. Chocolates do more to hide smut and undercolor issues than anything you'll find, and color will get you beat in a showroom in a red class faster than anything else.

Not quite sure what smut is....have you a picture? I too am working on Red Satins, but I need to know what to avoid!

Smut is the surface miscoloration stemming from inclusion of another variety in the animal's lineage. Long story short, it gives an appearance of having almost a copper or chin appearance to its coat, and really ruins the coloration. Look at the surface color of a copper and imagine that coloration spread out on a red coat, and that is what smut really looks like.

First, use reds to improve coppers, but NEVER use copper to improve your reds. You'll inherit problems with smut and undercolor (the coloration of the coat next to the skin) which will last for years & generations afterward.

Truthfully, the only color you can safely use with reds is chocolate, but be mindful and careful of what colors are in the chocolate's background before using it in your bloodline. The chocolate tort which was spoken of earlier would be a good suitable substitute, but you'll likely have some culling to do at times, which is true of every litter.

Long story short, the colors/varieties which won't work well with reds is nearly all-inclusive in both the short and long term.