Salander - infant pics?

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

Hey guys!

I have a new litter that I thought was mostly REW, and possibly ermine, but there's a self-chinchilla in there and I realized that that means I could have all the genetics necessary to make a Salander (I know the chin is Ee from prior breedings, not sure about the Cali, but her color is off and some people have suggested it might be because she is non-extension).

Some of the "REW" have slight markings here and there, they're only a couple of days old so their fur hasn't really come in, but the markings that I'm referring to are not dark enough to be broken chinchilla or anything like that. Do any of you have pictures of kits, like still in the nest box age, that are confirmed Salander?

I know if I could just be patient for a month I would answer my own question but I really like trying to guess this stuff in advance and then see how my guesses pan out!!

Thanks all!!

@judymac @Alaska Satin if you guys have any input that would be great, it's the kits out of the broken cali x chinchilla that I'm talking about

 

[judymac]

Sorry, all of my ermines are agouti-based, ermine is fawn/orange/red agouti + chinchilla (or sable). Sallander (aka Iron Gray or Pearl depending on breed) is self-colored non-extension tortoiseshell + chinchilla (or sable).

Newborns look like REW, this is an ermine x ermine litter:

By ten days of age, the chocolate frosting is already visible:

If this had been a self patterned sallander, the face, feet, and ears would have been dark.
The kit below is a regular tort--a sallander will have pearly white where the orange is, but you can already see the dark points on ears, face and feet:

The sallander (pearl for us angora breeders) will have the same points, but be pearly white elsewhere. The shade of pearl depends on the point colors. White angora is just too bright white to pair with the creamier wool shade effectively when spinning. I discovered that pearl was the better choice than albino white, it is not that same bright white. Black, chocolate, blue and lilac pearl have slightly different tints to the pearl-white coat, just as the various tort colors are slightly different tints. (I have a friend that breeds pearls, so I was able to use her fiber for the tests.)

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

Thanks @judymac ! Once their fur comes in more I'll post pics of the results

 

[Nibbles]

What a pretty color of fur on that lowest bunny.

 

[judymac]

What a pretty color of fur on that lowest bunny.

It's a chocolate tortoiseshell, I think it's a lovely color as well.

 

[Juci]

Here’s some pics of my sallander Buck. He is Vienna marked, but maybe you can see his coloring well enough to compare it to your kits.
From about a week old I was convinced he was lilac- he’s 1 week in the 2nd pic. First pic is about 3 weeks and the last pic is current. Then when he got older he started getting his darker ears and the next thing was darkness around his eyes. At some point I posted a pic on here of him and someone pointed out that he was sallander! It was the first I had ever heard of that. I love the color though, it’s always changing even now that he’s 4 months.

I kept this buck and I’m going to try to breed for more sallander, I hope it works out for you too! It’s a beautiful and interesting swirly color.

 

[Alaska Satin]

View attachment 35104View attachment 35105View attachment 35106

Here’s some pics of my sallander Buck. He is Vienna marked, but maybe you can see his coloring well enough to compare it to your kits.
From about a week old I was convinced he was lilac- he’s 1 week in the 2nd pic. First pic is about 3 weeks and the last pic is current. Then when he got older he started getting his darker ears and the next thing was darkness around his eyes. At some point I posted a pic on here of him and someone pointed out that he was sallander! It was the first I had ever heard of that. I love the color though, it’s always changing even now that he’s 4 months.

I kept this buck and I’m going to try to breed for more sallander, I hope it works out for you too! It’s a beautiful and interesting swirly color.

It really is a mouth-watering color!
Are you sure it's VM? That looks like a nearly perfect Dutch. Gorgeous!

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

View attachment 35104View attachment 35105View attachment 35106

Here’s some pics of my sallander Buck. He is Vienna marked, but maybe you can see his coloring well enough to compare it to your kits.
From about a week old I was convinced he was lilac- he’s 1 week in the 2nd pic. First pic is about 3 weeks and the last pic is current. Then when he got older he started getting his darker ears and the next thing was darkness around his eyes. At some point I posted a pic on here of him and someone pointed out that he was sallander! It was the first I had ever heard of that. I love the color though, it’s always changing even now that he’s 4 months.

I kept this buck and I’m going to try to breed for more sallander, I hope it works out for you too! It’s a beautiful and interesting swirly color.

Oh. My. God. He is gorgeous!!!!!!!! I so hope I get a sallander baby now!!!!!!

They really don't have enough fur to tell yet all I can really tell right now is I'm 99% sure they aren't pure white. I will update as I can tell more - thank you so much!!!!

 

[Juci]

It really is a mouth-watering color!
Are you sure it's VM? That looks like a nearly perfect Dutch. Gorgeous!

His parents have produced some very imperfect Dutch marked kits since him, and a few with odd white spots which makes me think one of them has the Vienna gene. They’re all mutts so it’s definitely possible that one of the parents might have Dutch in their genetics. I’d like to think that would be possible lol. Can’t wait to see what he’ll produce in the future!

 

[Juci]

Oh. My. God. He is gorgeous!!!!!!!! I so hope I get a sallander baby now!!!!!!

They really don't have enough fur to tell yet all I can really tell right now is I'm 99% sure they aren't pure white. I will update as I can tell more - thank you so much!!!!

Aww thanks! I was lucky he had a keeper temperament. He’s a sweetheart. I wish I had a picture to share of him as a younger kit, before his fur grew in. He was an accidental litter and was born in the ground, so I didn’t see him until I took that week old picture.
Yes, please update when your kits get their fur! I look forward to seeing how they turn out, and if there are any sallanders!

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

Aww thanks! I was lucky he had a keeper temperament. He’s a sweetheart. I wish I had a picture to share of him as a younger kit, before his fur grew in. He was an accidental litter and was born in the ground, so I didn’t see him until I took that week old picture.
Yes, please update when your kits get their fur! I look forward to seeing how they turn out, and if there are any sallanders!

I'm just going to start off by saying I realize that what I'm about to talk about is just going to look like a shadow to everyone but I promise you I've spent more time looking at this than I care to admit, and I am 99% sure it is not just shadow because no matter what light I look at it or what angle I turn the kit those marks are still there

I don't think it's sallander though because all the ears are bright pink, and from what I'm learning on this thread they should be dark if it's going to be sallander

So I think I'm coming to the conclusion that I will have REW and ermine, but I can breed that self-chin that's buried under everyone else to my ermine doe and get some probably.

So if you look at that blanket broken chin, the kit that is facing away from the camera to the right of that blanket broken has gray stripes going down either side of its top line. I know it just looks like a shadow, I know. But I promise it's not. I'm guessing ermine for that one. There is another one that looks like it might have some shading on its belly but I'm not going to promise that one isnt a shadow so I didn't bother posting a picture, it's also way too squiggly to try and get a good picture of its belly anyways lol

 

[Alaska Satin]

I'm just going to start off by saying I realize that what I'm about to talk about is just going to look like a shadow to everyone but I promise you I've spent more time looking at this than I care to admit, and I am 99% sure it is not just shadow because no matter what light I look at it or what angle I turn the kit those marks are still there

I don't think it's sallander though because all the ears are bright pink, and from what I'm learning on this thread they should be dark if it's going to be sallander

So I think I'm coming to the conclusion that I will have REW and ermine, but I can breed that self-chin that's buried under everyone else to my ermine doe and get some probably.

So if you look at that blanket broken chin, the kit that is facing away from the camera to the right of that blanket broken has gray stripes going down either side of its top line. I know it just looks like a shadow, I know. But I promise it's not. I'm guessing ermine for that one. There is another one that looks like it might have some shading on its belly but I'm not going to promise that one isnt a shadow so I didn't bother posting a picture, it's also way too squiggly to try and get a good picture of its belly anyways lol

View attachment 35108

I've only had a couple of sallanders a long time ago, but in my memory they started out looking pretty pink - I couldn't tell the difference among REW, himi, sallander or ermine for a week or so. With the presence of the self chin in your litter, you could certainly have either ermine (non-extension chin) or sallander (non-extension self chin) or both.

The sallander coloration seems to darken as the rabbit grows, which is interesting because the <cchd> gene isn't supposed to be temperature sensitive like the <cchl> and <ch> genes. I suppose if there was a <cchl> involved that might explain that, but I never had sable in my Satins. Anyway, there's a lot of variation in the development and final darkness of both ermines and sallander, so I'd be very interested to see photos of your babies as they grow.

By the way, if the parents are chin and himi, some or all of those pink babies will likely be himi rather than REW. Do you know yet what the chin carries at his second C locus?

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

@Juci do you mind if I keep those pictures of your sallander for a color chart I am working on? Someday I will publish it to help people identify colors but I have too many blanks right now for it to be useful to anyone. I would happily credit you, your rabbitry name, and your actual rabbit's name if you would be okay with me using the pictures later. Just let me know the info if you're okay with it

I've only had a couple of sallanders a long time ago, but in my memory they started out looking pretty pink - I couldn't tell the difference among REW, himi, sallander or ermine for a week or so. With the presence of the self chin in your litter, you could certainly have either ermine (non-extension chin) or sallander (non-extension self chin) or both.

The sallander coloration seems to darken as the rabbit grows, which is interesting because the <cchd> gene isn't supposed to be temperature sensitive like the <cchl> and <ch> genes. I suppose if there was a <cchl> involved that might explain that, but I never had sable in my Satins. Anyway, there's a lot of variation in the development and final darkness of both ermines and sallander, so I'd be very interested to see photos of your babies as they grow.

By the way, if the parents are chin and himi, some or all of those pink babies will likely be himi rather than REW. Do you know yet what the chin carries at his second C locus?

Thank you!! The chin is AaB_cchdcddEe, and I suspect BB but not proven per say.

I realize the kits could be chc, but thank you for pointing that out to be honest I didn't even realize that I neglected to mention that in my write-up lol

If anything interesting comes out of these kits I will be sure to post photos, if it just ends up being a bunch of REW I may forget so feel free to remind me in a little while lol

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

Sorry guys I'm not sure why my two replies to two different people posted as one, must have been a glitch of some sort, but I think it's legible enough.

 

[Juci]

@Juci do you mind if I keep those pictures of your sallander for a color chart I am working on? Someday I will publish it to help people identify colors but I have too many blanks right now for it to be useful to anyone. I would happily credit you, your rabbitry name, and your actual rabbit's name if you would be okay with me using the pictures later. Just let me know the info if you're okay with it



Thank you!! The chin is AaB_cchdcddEe, and I suspect BB but not proven per say.

I realize the kits could be chc, but thank you for pointing that out to be honest I didn't even realize that I neglected to mention that in my write-up lol

If anything interesting comes out of these kits I will be sure to post photos, if it just ends up being a bunch of REW I may forget so feel free to remind me in a little while lol

Sure! Feel free to use any of them. I have a ton of other pics and I might be able to take some better ones too if it would be helpful to have a better current photo of him when you’re ready to put it together. his name is London Fog, after the tea drink.

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

Sure! Feel free to use any of them. I have a ton of other pics and I might be able to take some better ones too if it would be helpful to have a better current photo of him when you’re ready to put it together. his name is London Fog, after the tea drink.

Omg I love the name - and thank you!!! I'll reach out if I need an updated one but I think these will be great!!