Sable? Or Something Entirely Different?

[Silver Willow]

One of our latest litters are now roughly four weeks old, and I'm a bit puzzled with the colour of one of them.

When the kit in mind was a popple he was pink, unlike the other sables we'd had, so I kind of just assumed he was either a REW or a Smoke Pearl. But then as they all got older he decided to turn real dark, more like the seals that are also in his litter.

This kit looks allot like a sable, only he seems to have quite a bit of 'ticking', or something similar, on certain parts of his body. This is mainly on his tail and legs, but when you part his fur you can see the ends of the hairs are white tipped. We've had a number of sables before, and none of them looked like this at all.









Is this normal, and simply his baby fluff that will eventually shed out? Or is it some kind of weird unrecognised colour?

Thanks in advance C:

 

[Celice]

yep, that bunny is a black sable!

 

[akane]

What are the colors of his parents? My first thought as I scrolled past your pictures toward the top was that I saw some steel ticking.

 

[Zinnia]

My guess is Steel of some sort. But, yes... parents would be helpful to know.

 

[Silver Willow]

@Celice; What do you mean by black sable?

@akane and @Zinnia; Whoops, I completely forgot about that! The little kits dam was a Sable, and his sire is a Self Black. Sires own sire was a Black Otter, and dam was a Smoke Pearl Marten.

Don't know exactly what is on the dam or grand- dams side, but I do know that the grand- sire came from a rabbitry with lots of weird agouti colours. Come to think of it actually, the grand- sires own dam was what the people called an 'Orange Agouti'. Looked a bit like a strange Chestnut to me though, so I dunno.

This will be interesting if he does turn out to be steel, I never really thought about the fact that our small herd would carry anything like it!

 

[Zinnia]

@Celice; What do you mean by black sable?

@akane and @Zinnia; Whoops, I completely forgot about that! The little kits dam was a Sable, and his sire is a Self Black. Sires own sire was a Black Otter, and dam was a Smoke Pearl Marten.

Don't know exactly what is on the dam or grand- dams side, but I do know that the grand- sire came from a rabbitry with lots of weird agouti colours. Come to think of it actually, the grand- sires own dam was what the people called an 'Orange Agouti'. Looked a bit like a strange Chestnut to me though, so I dunno.

This will be interesting if he does turn out to be steel, I never really thought about the fact that our small herd would carry anything like it!

I've learned that Steels are far more common than people think. A Self Black could be Steel without you knowing it. It cannot show itself in Self colors, so even if he was Steel, you'd only know through offspring and some luck.

I thought Sable appeared more smoothly colored... so Steel seems more likely. But, Sable and Steel is possible, too.

The more I look at those pics, the more I see Steel. I have a Chestnut Steel that appeared black at birth and developed coloring like this.

 

[TF3]

Looks like my gold tipped steel kit in the nest right now

 

[akane]

Steel sometimes does weird things so I dunno but usually you need an agouti gene and if the parents were truly a sable and black there would be no agouti. Wasn't there something about 2 steel genes making a self black looking rabbit that actually is agouti? We don't have an agouti in the buck's parents though. If there's unknown agoutis in the background maybe someone just messed up. Color oopsy happens quite a bit when people run into weird things and don't have a full understanding of the color group.

 

[Prisma]

Could also just be snowballed, incorrect coloring. Happens more frequently with torts than sables, but have seen it. Some times it molts out, some times it doesn't.

 

[Celice]

@Celice; What do you mean by black sable?

A black sable is sable that has black points:

I have Lilac, blue, Chocolate, Chinchilla, and Agouti sable at my place and they all start out with some kind of ticking coloration on the fur but fade away as they get older. This little one that you have I'm positive it's a black sable.

 

[Zinnia]

Steel sometimes does weird things so I dunno but usually you need an agouti gene and if the parents were truly a sable and black there would be no agouti. Wasn't there something about 2 steel genes making a self black looking rabbit that actually is agouti? We don't have an agouti in the buck's parents though. If there's unknown agoutis in the background maybe someone just messed up. Color oopsy happens quite a bit when people run into weird things and don't have a full understanding of the color group.

No need for 2 Steel genes making a Self looking Agouti Steel. I have two such rabbits right now. A_ bb Cc dd Ese that looks totally Lilac Self... but she's not. I have a Blue the same and just culled a Chocolate that was Aa bb Cc Dd Ese. It's the e on the end of the Es that prevents a Steel from looking correct... or revealing itself.

I don't have enough experience with Sable to know what changes are normal... <br /><br /> __________ Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:46 pm __________ <br /><br />

@Celice; What do you mean by black sable?

A black sable is sable that has black points:

I have Lilac, blue, Chocolate, Chinchilla, and Agouti sable at my place and they all start out with some kind of ticking coloration on the fur but fade away as they get older. This little one that you have I'm positive it's a black sable.

I'm excited to find out what the kit becomes. I'm expecting my first non-Agouti Sable kits and I would love to see what is normal for color! opcorn:

 

[Zass]

It's the e on the end of the Es that prevents a Steel from looking correct... or revealing itself.

I'm pretty convinced agouti steel can look convincingly self pretty much whenever it feels like it. :lol:

I know EsEs, Ese and Esej can all pull off the trick, and I really really strongly suspect that EsE can do it too, with the right modifiers.

To test your black for steel, you could breed to an agouti or chinchilla, preferably one that doesn't even carry self, since my experiments with the gene suggest that lines that have the modifiers to throw self looking steels tend to throw more false selfs than anything else.. :roll:

I'm not saying the kit is a steel since I'm not familiar with sables.

 

[Silver Willow]

Interesting. So looks as is he's some sort of steel then?

Now all I have to do is restart my plan on learning the genetic stuff, and try understand all of this!

 

[akane]

Sables don't tick as they get color in my experience and I bred american sables that are entire litters of sables sometimes. Plus lots of netherland dwarf sables. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of good sable growing out pics but they start a blue that is a bit grey compared to self blue and then they will brown out sometimes slowly and sometimes in patches. They keep getting lighter until they reach their full color but never is a hair shaft 2 colors or shades. New hair comes in a different color as old hair falls out and there is only ever one color per hair. If they are having a ticked appearance it is not tipped hairs. It is the mix of different hairs more like a roan animal.

The best example I can come up with is the silvering of d'argents. This is a rabbit on it's way from black to silver.

They get patches and they get mixes of hair but each hair is still either all black or all silver.

 

[Zass]

When the kit in mind was a popple he was pink

No black based steel has ever looked pink in the nestbox. Sometimes, they almost look like chestnuts, with less black where agouti marks should be than a self kit has, and sometimes they are all black just like a self.

 

[Zinnia]

I have a Sable Chinchilla and I have a GT Steel Chestnut. Wonder what that combination would look like.... Anyone ever see Steel on a Sable Chin?

 

[Silver Willow]

Here are some more photos of the kit, in case they are any clue as to what colour he might be. He hasn't changed much that I can see, and still has large amounts of ticking on his tail, legs, and ears.

 

[skysthelimit]

Interesting. Looks like one of my Silver Fox/Angora cross kits.