Rabbit pregnant or phantom?

[Curiouslagomorph]

Hi,
So last month my rabbit had 5 fall offs and rejected the buck the very next day.

On day 16 she made a nest with fur, so I believed phantom pregnancy.

On day 18 (finished this behaviour after day 16) she was remated and should of been at "her most fertile".

But she rejected the buck severely.
She attacked him and he was only able to get two matings in by luck. Instead of the does willingness.

She has never acted this way to the buck last time and she had healthy litter of five. She gets fed up after a while but "sits" correctly.

I thought she was phantom because of that nest behaviour, but then why did she reject the buck that badly?

She's supposed to be due today but her fur is not loose.

Have you seen this behaviour in a pregnant doe?

 

[Alaska Satin]

Hi,
So last month my rabbit had 5 fall offs and rejected the buck the very next day.

On day 16 she made a nest with fur, so I believed phantom pregnancy.

On day 18 (finished this behaviour after day 16) she was remated and should of been at "her most fertile".

But she rejected the buck severely.
She attacked him and he was only able to get two matings in by luck. Instead of the does willingness.

She has never acted this way to the buck last time and she had healthy litter of five. She gets fed up after a while but "sits" correctly.

I thought she was phantom because of that nest behaviour, but then why did she reject the buck that badly?

She's supposed to be due today but her fur is not loose.

Have you seen this behaviour in a pregnant doe?

It sounds like false pregnancy behavior, but I would let her keep her nest box until day 35 just in case. I've been fooled more than once, with tragic results.

If she is undergoing a false pregnancy, she wouldn't have the surge of hormones that comes with kindling and nursing, so she may not have been especially receptive at the second attempt, at least not more than at any other point in time.

As far as seeing __________ behavior in a pregnant doe, you could probably fill in the blank with just about any behavior and I'd say "yes." I've had pregnant does willing to breed daily until they kindled; does that build their nests two weeks early; does that don't pull fur until 4 days after kindling; does that weren't pregnant act like they were (including having loose fur). The sad truth of the matter is that rabbits don't read the guidebooks and biology books and they each have their own individual quirks ... so, better safe than sorry! The worst that can happen is that she has a nest box for a while that she doesn't need.

 

[eco2pia]

And, this is why I don't do mid cycle rebreeding. I don't know what the rebreeding is supposed to do. You may save 14 days, but some does will fight regardless, some will lift regardless, and your buck may become less enthusiastic about breeding after dealing with the fighters.

Actually according to this lovely 1986 publication on rabbit husbandry, this is known, so @Alaska Satin maybe they DO read guidebooks, but just different ones than you have!

"In most mammals the progesterone secreted during gestation inhibits oestrus and the pregnant female refuses to mate, but a pregnant doe may accept mating throughout the gestation period. Indeed, in the second half of pregnancy this is the most common behaviour (Figure 9).

A breeder cannot therefore use the sexual behaviour of does as an indication of pregnancy. Mating occurring during gestation has no dire consequences for the embryos. Unlike the phenomenon observed in the female hare, superfoetation (2 simultaneous pregnancies at 2 different stages of development) never occurs in rabbits."

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

It sounds like false pregnancy behavior, but I would let her keep her nest box until day 35 just in case. I've been fooled more than once, with tragic results.

If she is undergoing a false pregnancy, she wouldn't have the surge of hormones that comes with kindling and nursing, so she may not have been especially receptive at the second attempt, at least not more than at any other point in time.

As far as seeing __________ behavior in a pregnant doe, you could probably fill in the blank with just about any behavior and I'd say "yes." I've had pregnant does willing to breed daily until they kindled; does that build their nests two weeks early; does that don't pull fur until 4 days after kindling; does that weren't pregnant act like they were (including having loose fur). The sad truth of the matter is that rabbits don't read the guidebooks and biology books and they each have their own individual quirks ... so, better safe than sorry! The worst that can happen is that she has a nest box for a while that she doesn't need.

I don't use a nest box.
The hutch is not deep enough to allow her to get in their with one big enough.
The babies grow quick and I want to keep them as clean as I can.
Last time they developed nest box eye.

My grandad never used one and so I follow his example.

I know it risks cold kits, I just have to be very vigilant.

That is very good advice.

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

And, this is why I don't do mid cycle rebreeding. I don't know what the rebreeding is supposed to do. You may save 14 days, but some does will fight regardless, some will lift regardless, and your buck may become less enthusiastic about breeding after dealing with the fighters.

Actually according to this lovely 1986 publication on rabbit husbandry, this is known, so @Alaska Satin maybe they DO read guidebooks, but just different ones than you have!

"In most mammals the progesterone secreted during gestation inhibits oestrus and the pregnant female refuses to mate, but a pregnant doe may accept mating throughout the gestation period. Indeed, in the second half of pregnancy this is the most common behaviour (Figure 9).

A breeder cannot therefore use the sexual behaviour of does as an indication of pregnancy. Mating occurring during gestation has no dire consequences for the embryos. Unlike the phenomenon observed in the female hare, superfoetation (2 simultaneous pregnancies at 2 different stages of development) never occurs in rabbits."

Superfetation actually does occur in rabbits.
It was even recorded in a science journal.

This pic is of new Zealand litter with superfetation kit as the first one..


https://www.researchgate.net/figure...derdeveloped-newborn-kit-total_fig8_280741256
It happens in mice too and may even occur in humans.

But it's extremely rare and not really a worry

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

I don't use a nest box

Then what DO you use?

You don't always have to use an actual nest box, wide and shallow (but not too shallow) plastic containers could also work

 

[GreenAcresHomestead]

Hi,
So last month my rabbit had 5 fall offs and rejected the buck the very next day.

On day 16 she made a nest with fur, so I believed phantom pregnancy.

On day 18 (finished this behaviour after day 16) she was remated and should of been at "her most fertile".

But she rejected the buck severely.
She attacked him and he was only able to get two matings in by luck. Instead of the does willingness.

She has never acted this way to the buck last time and she had healthy litter of five. She gets fed up after a while but "sits" correctly.

I thought she was l because of that nest behaviour, but then why did she reject the buck that badly?

She's supposed to be due today but her fur is not loose.

Have you seen this behaviour in a pregnant doe?

We have had a doe act that way before too and it just was a phantom pregnancy each time unfortunately

 

[eco2pia]

Superfetation actually does occur in rabbits.
It was even recorded in a science journal.

It happens in mice too and may even occur in humans.

But it's extremely rare and not really a worry

Actually I was looking for documentation of that and I found that to this day there is not a true consensus in rabbits, so I left the quote as it was without further comment.

But you are right, there have apparently been rare anecdotal cases in rabbits, sheep, and other mammals. I didn't have as much time to search around today though, kinda busy. Good catch!

 

[ladysown]

nestboxes do not cause nestbox eye. I am FULLY convinced that nestbox eye is the result of some latent virus/illness that is in the momma. I've had does keep a filthy nestbox and all the kits come out pristine AND had does who keep a clean and dry nestbox and kits come out with horrid eyes. I've then done testing with mixing kits from offenders and nonoffenders.

What fixes nestbox eye (in my opinion) is breeding it out of your herd. Mommas that throw it get removed from your breeding program. I don't keep rabbits that throw unthrifty kits or that have poor immune systems.

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

We have had a doe act that way before too and it just was a phantom pregnancy each time unfortunately

We can only wait and see

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

Then what DO you use?

You don't always have to use an actual nest box, wide and shallow (but not too shallow) plastic containers could also work

Just let them make the nest in the bedding area of the hutch. Babies are always ok.
In the cold we have hutch covers to prevent draft

Update- we have tried a container before and she didn't like it

 

[eco2pia]

Just let them make the nest in the bedding area of the hutch. Babies are always ok.
In the cold we have hutch covers to prevent draft

Update- we have tried a container before and she didn't like it

the bedding area is the part with a solid floor and at least 3 solid walls? then it is a nest box basically.

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

the bedding area is the part with a solid floor and at least 3 solid walls? then it is a nest box basically.

Yeah it's literally that. 3 walls, floor all solid. Divider with big "doorway" for entry

I don't have wire floors either. So no worries.

Lots of hay too

 

[eco2pia]

Then you just have a built in nest box!! I have seen that type of hutch.

I have completely open cages, as do many, so the box is critical, or the hay just falls thru the floor and the kits chill.

 

[Cotton Rabbitry]

nestboxes do not cause nestbox eye. I am FULLY convinced that nestbox eye is the result of some latent virus/illness that is in the momma. I've had does keep a filthy nestbox and all the kits come out pristine AND had does who keep a clean and dry nestbox and kits come out with horrid eyes. I've then done testing with mixing kits from offenders and nonoffenders.

What fixes nestbox eye (in my opinion) is breeding it out of your herd. Mommas that throw it get removed from your breeding program. I don't keep rabbits that throw unthrifty kits or that have poor immune systems.

I would agree with ladysown on this. I have had two does cut from my herd after a second breeding because of nesteye. And have litters on built nest on wire as well as nest boxes.

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

Update -
Seems first round was phantom as still no kits.

I did get in that mating back in 9 aug.

She seems super grumpy (not normal) and still rejecting bucks.

Do you think she's pregnant from that second mating?
Their was only two fall offs.

By Friday I'll see if their kits or phantom nest building. Ironically the real nesting and fake nesting line up so I'll have to see by Friday if first mating babies or second mating was phantom too.

Didnt really check that date nightmare in my head before hand .

So she sounds like pregnant from second mating to me, You?

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

You said she was second time bred on August 9th? There's no way she would be having the Kits so soon

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

You said she was second time bred on August 9th? There's no way she would be having the Kits so soon

She was bred July 22.
That seemed to be the phantom due to early nest building

She was remated on aug 9.

Friday is 35 days from July 22. So she may still have a chance for it not to have been a phantom. But it seems slim.

Unfortunately Friday is also 18 days from second mating (9th aug)

So nest building could be babies from July 22 mating. Or phantom building from aug 9 mating.

I don't expect aug 9 babies too appear at all. Too soon.
I'm waiting to see if July 22 was phantom or not. Seems so though.

It is confusing unless wordy

I'm waiting to see if

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

You said she was second time bred on August 9th? There's no way she would be having the Kits so soon

I'm seeing if she's even pregnant from second mating at all.
Can't palpate as she's day 16.

She's nightmare to palpate too, vet tried and said no. Then poof 5 kits.
It's like she hides them XD

I don't expect to see second mate kits, if they were they'd be underdeveloped fetus