questions about improving meat mutts

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Rainey

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After reading about others' successes and failures, I'm still trying to figure out how to move ahead in this second season of raising rabbits for meat. I'm disappointed in the does we kept back from last year (from our original NZW does and a SF buck) The first one lost one complete litter and 7 out of 11 from the next. The second had 6 and lost 2 so she also has just four left and is rebred--due early June. The third had 9 and has 7 left after 6 days. But the mother of these does had 8 and lost none each of the 3 times we bred her. I was just reading Zass's post on a thread about SF and she found them to be poor mothers, not enough milk. Mine are not crazy mean like hers but I think the milk supply is a problem. What I wonder is whether milk production is apt to improve next time they kindle (as it does with our goats--first lactation generally lower production)? And whether it is likely that if I keep any of this year's does to breed back to the SF buck, milk production will just get worse as that generation would be 3/4 SF instead of half?

I'm trying to figure out whether to stay with the does we have for another year, whether to keep the best grown buck from the doe that does the best through the season and breed to him next year. The SF buck we have now has never refused to breed and there have been live kits from every encounter that looked remotely like a possible successful breeding. He's got a good disposition, doesn't spray. But he's small for a SF, just under 8 pounds at almost 2 years old. And if the low milk production is either a SF trait generally or one from his line it will only get worse the more generations we breed back to him.

I read posts by people who keep buying new rabbits and sometimes get the traits they were looking for and sometimes don't. Also read the advice (which makes good sense to me) to buy rabbits that have been raised the way you want to raise yours and that complicates buying new rabbits because I don't know of anyone around us who feeds forage and not pellets or even that I have any reason to believe has a good line of meat mutts.

Our goal is to raise meat for home use and to feed as much as possible what we can grow ourselves. I'd welcome advice from those with more experience about where to go from here.
 
I know there are definitely good SF lines out there.

I just didn't get lucky with my stock. :(

The SF mutts were an 100% improvement on the purebred does when it came to milk supply, so I can't help you there.

I bred them to some seriously heavily milking does, so that might be why. Instead of the flemish/nz crosses having 10 + kits and nursing that many, or the SF only nursing about 6 and usually only having that many... mixing them up seems to have helped even things out.

They have been having about 7-9 kits and nursing them all with ease. Growth rates ended up better than I was getting with the fg/nz crosses.

Maybe that was just a matter of cross breeding moving them towards a more neutral place. :shrug:
 
While it quite possible to transition mature rabbits from pellets to forage, it is a pain in the neck and can't be done overnight. In addition, bringing in new rabbits can also bring in the risk of disease.

My small meat mutt colony did best when I bred for improvement with the rabbits I already had in a closed rabbitry. Rabbits I brought in (just three over the years) did not thrive over the long haul. One died suddenly when it was just out of quarantine, one developed gut stasis after being here about a year and the third we had longer but he eventually developed abscesses and we culled him. It is possible that there was a dormant strain of something in my rabbits that the newcomers had no resistance to. None that were kindled here ever showed any sign of illness.

This third rabbit was a purebred NZ Red buck and is the only purebred I've ever owned. His genes did a lot to improve my stock and I don't regret bringing him in, but I prefer to keep additions to a minimum. His son -- bigger, meatier and better-natured -- became our herd sire.

Choose the best of the best for future breeding and don't assume that when a doe is a few years old she should be culled. Keep a good doe as long as her production is good--her experience pays off in the long run.

The does you have now may improve at their next kindling. Good mothering instincts and milk production are, of course, of prime importance and not all does will be keepers. Most of us have a "three strikes and you're out" rule, unless there are extenuating circumstances.
 
Bringing new stock all the time means that to a certain extent you're always starting over, especially since you're not feeding pellets. Keep what does best on your regimine and go from there. The first few years are always a learning curve. I'm just starting to get the traits in my herd that I want, its taken me years to get here and I have a long way to go yet.
 
3mina":25iouipx said:
Bringing new stock all the time means that to a certain extent you're always starting over, especially since you're not feeding pellets. Keep what does best on your regimine and go from there. The first few years are always a learning curve. I'm just starting to get the traits in my herd that I want, its taken me years to get here and I have a long way to go yet.

And you got the traits by continuing to work with the rabbits you had? or by bringing in new stock that had the desired traits?
 
A little of both but mostly breeding what I had. If you see improvement keep working with what you have, if you don't buy-the best you can find. Once I started showing, getting comments from judges, talking to other breeders and putting my hands on their stock my stock started improving. Keep in mind though, my herd is on pellets and hay cubes. They don't get anything else aside from the occasional rolled oats.
 
MaggieJ":1ypv7b3z said:
While it quite possible to transition mature rabbits from pellets to forage, it is a pain in the neck and can't be done overnight. In addition, bringing in new rabbits can also bring in the risk of disease.

That's why I hate the idea of starting over--I hoped that the rabbits that had been raised on forage and did well would have kits that thrived on it


Choose the best of the best for future breeding and don't assume that when a doe is a few years old she should be culled. Keep a good doe as long as her production is good--her experience pays off in the long run.

I would have kept the productive doe but she was a biter and we just didn't want to deal with it. Just disappointed that so far her daughters aren't doing as well.

The does you have now may improve at their next kindling. Good mothering instincts and milk production are, of course, of prime importance and not all does will be keepers. Most of us have a "three strikes and you're out" rule, unless there are extenuating circumstances.

I need to be patient with the two does that have done the best and see how they do through the rest of this season. Think we'll stop breeding again for the winter months. We'll see how they do the next couple litters. Thanks for your encouraging words and for sharing your experience
 
A prime example of improvement, I bred my red doe in February at our 'spring' show. She kindled 8 and weaned 7 (1 dropped dead at about 2 1/2 weeks) for her first litter. I bred her again in April and last night she kindled 15. I'm going to let her raise them but if I have to I can foster some to my otter doe who only gave me 6 the day before.
My proven tri doe kindled kindled 10 in her first litter for me and didn't feed them at all, fortunately I had another doe with a singleton and moved 5 over to her, 2 survived. Her next litter was 9 and they're amazing little chunkers that she's feeding very well
 
Not sure if this is an improvement but Berwick just kindled 13, all live, today. Her first time, April 4, she had 6 and lost 2 in the first 10 days. She built a good nest and pulled plenty of fur and had the kits in the box this time instead of on the wire. Those are definite improvements. The question is whether she can feed that many. (Casco lost 2 of the 9 she kindled her first litter and they are doing well at 3 weeks. I appreciate whoever it was that advised weighing the whole litter for the first few weeks to get an idea of the doe's milk production)
What I don't know is whether Berwick will be able to feed 13. I don't have the option of fostering. I don't feel at all confident of my ability to select the best--often it's the smallest that doesn't make it but sometimes a larger kit just doesn't seem to thrive. I can see why some people cull to a manageable litter size right away but I don't feel like I know yet how many kits each of my does could feed successfully nor how to choose who to cull at birth. After a day or two I can see now who is fed and who isn't and can cull then if needed.
3mina's post gives me some hope of seeing improvement over this season with these does. But if they kindle and raise bigger litters I'll need to adjust how often we're breeding or we'll be swamped with rabbits. :eek:

question about supporting milk production--parsley is often recommended and I have plenty in my herb garden but I've seen some posts saying that after the first few days parsley decreases production instead. So how long and how much parsley would be helpful? I also have dried stinging nettle--does anyone give that in addition or instead of parsley? Any other suggestions?
 
I have a doe that can raise large litters with no fostering needed. so give her a chance...after the firs two days I stop the parsley, only up to ten sprigs a day,but this is a 13 lb.doe.Give black oil sunflower seeds at about 1-2 Tbs. daily to enrich milk and possibly increase the amount of milk, not sure on that one, but I know it helps. Free feed also give her all she wants, Maybe if she eats a particular food more increase that one too..couldn't hurt.
I think it was Michales4gardens that said to give cooked potato for extra starches, Maybe even sweet potato as it has iron. just a guess on these though...
I am so excited for you and your large litter!!! I wanted to chime in here with :congratulations:
Just watch for development, mostly in the hind quarters, that is how I tell who is not going to make it.By three or four days if the hind legs are drawn up and skinny you have a kit that is loosing the battle.
 
I am still a total newbie so I hesitate posting but wanted to tell about my first experience... I had a doe with 11 kits! within a day or two it was obvious one wasn't doing well so I culled it to put it out of its misery (skin and bones). She raised 8 out... the two lost were not her fault - our dog got one and another was found on the wire one cold morning. I will have to try parsley and BOSS next time. I didn't know to supplement...
 
Just wanted to post an update. Checked the kits this morning, one day old, and found 12 were clearly fed and one was iffy. All warm and wiggly. Berwick, the doe, is eating and drinking well. Have given her parsley and BOSS added to her grain and making sure she gets the best bits of the forage. Will keep an eye on the kits but feel encouraged. Thanks, Katiebear for the advice to look at the hind legs for development at 3 or 4 days. That kind of specific detail is really helpful--it takes practice to learn how to see but it helps a lot to know what to look for. We've learned from RT to check for full bellies and now will know to watch for how the legs develop. Thanks! :)
 
I recently had to do my first cull of a kit that was eating well but had no function in its back legs or bowels. Poor thing was almost as wide as it was long since it couldn't evacuate
 

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