Question about Litter Size Trends

[ramblingrabbit]

I'm curious--from what I've heard, it sounds like does tend to produce litters of similar size throughout their life.

But is it normal for a doe's first litter(s) to be on the smaller side? Or is it that if her first is small, her litters will always be smallish?

I have a young doe who just kindled for the first time. She was covered 4x in the breeding, and her mother always had between 8 and 11 kits per litter, even when she was only covered once, but this daughter only had 4 this time, including one runt (same buck BTW).

 

[stone soup farm]

My first timers have all had 7-9 in a litter, but our rabbits only started having litters this January with a total of 4 does. I have read that sometimes the first litters are smaller and then the next ones will be the "norm". Good to know it is the same buck. If you have bred him with any other does recently and their litters are smaller too it might be his end. Bucks can also have infertility during heat, so maybe it was just too hot.

If she has been a good mother I would give her another chance and see if the next batch has more.

 

[skysthelimit]

I breed once, one fall off, and even first timers have litters of 9-12. It seems that particular does always give me the same amount, and if they have more, they tend to fade until it's the normal amount. It follows that there daughters doe the same, making me think litter size is hereditary.

Anything goes for first timers, I would not set a trend for that doe until at least 3 litters (we tend to have a three strike rule). Hippa had three litters, and she lost all or more than half of each litter because she did not have milk for the first three days. I considered that a trend and culled her.

 

[ckcs]

My Lionhead does have in general started small and went up over 2-3 litters. A starter litter would be 2-3 and by the 3rd litter I was seeing 5-6. I have a first time Holland Lop/ Lionhead knock out 7 on her first litter that she delivered when she was 5 months old. Only 2 survived though. Seems result will vary. If I didn't see the doe reaching her potential on the 3rd litter I'd be thinking about using a different doe.

 

[TheLittleBunny10]

the first litter my doe had was 7, I will (hopefully) be breeding her again in Jan. (2 times covered)

My friend who bought one of her babies, will be breeding around the same time as me.

I'll have to see how many babies they have

 

[3mina]

I'm with Skys, I don't set anything 'in stone' about any rabbit until three litters anyway.
I had issues with feed this spring so I gave everybunny more slack than I usually would because of it

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

my cali doe had 9 her first litter, one DOA the rest lived. second litter of 8, all lived. just had her third litter of 8 yesterday and all look great!

I had a lionhead doe that consistently had litters of 8 no matter what and unless something like extreme heat then she would raise all 8 and healthy.

my original dutch doe had consistent litters of 8 and 5 would live each time. her daughter I had kept back I only bred once and I wanna say she had litter of 6 all lived.

my new cali doe was bred to a MR before I got her. her first litter. she had 9, 1 DOA and two teeny runts that died within two days. the remaining 6 though are doing good. i'm breeding her back to a thrianta buck right now and hoping she continues with the litters of 9 and that the deaths from this first litter are just because first timer and it was MR buck.

 

[ramblingrabbit]

Thanks for the replies, folks. I look forward to seeing how it goes with her next few litters. She's been so nervous, it's very endearing. But she made a great nest, pulled lots of fur, and the kits all look good. The older doe's last litter by the same buck was her largest yet at eleven, so I don't think his fertility is a factor--unless it was indeed the heat, it has been rather warm recently. Maybe it's not a bad idea to stick to breeding just in the early mornings at least till the end of the summer...

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

my cali doe had 9 her first litter, one DOA the rest lived. second litter of 8, all lived. just had her third litter of 8 yesterday and all look great!
just wanted to update that all 8 are getting fat now and despite pretty high temps and then high-low-high-low now low temps they are doing good. some of the kits points are comin in better then others though.

my new cali doe was bred to a MR before I got her. her first litter. she had 9, 1 DOA and two teeny runts that died within two days. the remaining 6 though are doing good. i'm breeding her back to a thrianta buck right now and hoping she continues with the litters of 9 and that the deaths from this first litter are just because first timer and it was MR buck.
this was her first breed back and she tenses all up when I try to palpate but she is due on the 24th (next week) so will update when/if she kindles. lost one of her kits yesterday sadly, there was some mold startin in the bottom of my last bag of pellets *grr!* so tossed that and everyone else seems fine.

 

[grumpy]

I'm going to the opposite side of the general consensus.

I 'think' that a doe's first litter "is" an indicator of the future.
She may fail miserably in keeping them alive, but that's okay.
As long as it's a healthy litter with a good number of youngsters born.

I sent five does to the snake man last
night because of their performance.
Short litters, missed breeding's, poor mothering abilities,
all go into my deciding whether or not they deserve a cage in my rabbitry.

They were 'beautiful' does. Just lousy mothers or poor producers.
One doe had two misses....then three litters.
Of the three litters, she had 8 only one time.
The other two litters she had 4 once and 5 the other.
That's NOT a good doe. She needed to be gone.
Now, I've got an empty hole for a junior doe
that's close to breeding age.

I think that too much time is wasted on "giving them another chance."
If you've got doubts.....get it "gone" and move on to the next.
Historically, my best does started out 'great' and went on from there.
I've had a handful that really botched their first litter,
then became very good to excellent thereafter.

There's no sense in feeding a marginal doe.
She takes up your time.
She takes up your cage space.
She eats up your money.
She gives you frustration for your efforts.

These does are.....money pits.
Money pits that don't need to be in the rabbitry.
Once a year, I'll do an overall assessment of the herd.
It's a "cold-hearted" day when it occurs.
But all animals are either 'kept' or 'gone'
based solely on the card on the front of their cage.
This includes all bucks and all does.
None are afforded the luxury of "sentiment'.

It's a tough day. But at the end of it,
I've got "ONLY" the best producers left.
The first time I did this, I had a butt-load of empty cages.
However, in subsequent years, there were
fewer and fewer cages that needed to be filled.

Keep only the best....you'll end up with only the best.

grumpy.

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

I couldn't say it any better in the larger scale like grumpy... but if you are in rabbits other than meat...that the answers are different

 

[Dood]

I've found that my meat rabbits that had a small first litter, will always have small litters. However, my Mini and Lion lops do tend to only have 2-4 in total the first timeand then produce 7-8 for their 2nd, 3rd etc... litters.

There's no sense in feeding a marginal doe.
She takes up your time.
She takes up your cage space.
She eats up your money.
She gives you frustration for your efforts.

In theory I agree with Grumpy but it can be hard to replace a doe you've known for a year or more.

I still have a doe who never has more than 5 kits. I've been planning to replace her since spring but she's still here

She just had a stupendous litter of 2 ! But two other does bad 10 and 11 so I fostered over 5 kits. She is a terrific mom and a real sweetheart and I've been trying to find a pet home but 12 pound bunnies are not popular here.

 

[grumpy]

I've found that my meat rabbits that had a small first litter, will always have small litters. However, my Mini and Lion lops do tend to only have 2-4 in total the first timeand then produce 7-8 for their 2nd, 3rd etc... litters.

There's no sense in feeding a marginal doe.
She takes up your time.
She takes up your cage space.
She eats up your money.
She gives you frustration for your efforts.

In theory I agree with Grumpy but it can be hard to replace a doe you've known for a year or more.

I still have a doe who never has more than 5 kits. I've been planning to replace her since spring but she's still here

She just had a stupendous litter of 2 ! But two other does bad 10 and 11 so I fostered over 5 kits. She is a terrific mom and a real sweetheart and I've been trying to find a pet home but 12 pound bunnies are not popular here.

LOL. Dood.

I'm gonna take a step 'back' from my hard-nosed approach.

"IF" you've got a doe, and "IF" she's a lovable old soul,
and "IF" she's a good mama, and "IF" she's a reliable breeder.

Then.....there's 'hope' for her and
she can earn her keep in a rabbitry.
Just breed her the same day you breed
one of your does that kindle a passel of little ones.
You can easily foster youngsters to her.
Just put an 'ink-dot' tattoo in the kit's ear
so you'll know it's a foster baby.

These types of does can be a blessing at times.
YES....I'm guilty of that practice, also.
But, that was long ago and the old doe finally passed.
I swore that would be the last time I got attached to a darned rabbit!!
Those gems come along every once in a while
and it's hard to keep a cold-heart when they do.

Sort of like a gentle-old-dog, they kind of sneak up on you
and steal your heart.

grumpy

 

[skysthelimit]

I don't have any sentiments towards any of my rabbits, other than they are good producers and good type.
( I have a GC eligible Jersey Wooly, who has not had a litter in a year and a half.)
Gorgeous, typey, and as soon as I am able to get to a show to register him, he'll be culled.

I cull mercilessly, for litter size, except the chin doe that give me 2-4 and none have ever survived. She's still here because Rex and Chin Rex are rare. Now that I have an abundance of chins, she'' be gone by the end of this month.

As for the Seal Rex, the rarest of all colors, she had no milk the first litter, and has not took since June. I am past the point of caring, and if I don't get something before the winter, she'll be gone in the spring, and I'll be arranging transport for another Seal doe.

 

[Dood]

The only reason I've kept her is because I have the cage space.

I was growing out replacements then a friend wanted to have rabbits over the summer so I sold her one of the 5 month old does and another buyer came along and offered $50 each (normally $30) for the others because they didnt want to wait for the 8 week ones to mature so I couldnt say no

Synconizing her with other more productive does is the only reason I could justify her feed bill and she is a really good mom with lots of milk and will take in another's kits of any age - I've even used her to supplement two litters of mini lops.

Now that fall is here breeding stock sales are dropping and I have more does growing out so I doubt she'll still be around in the spring but you never know