Puppies!

[Cottie]

We'll get it out of the way first: unintentional pregnancy. I know zero about breeding dogs. Fiancee did not want her to be fixed (this is a long story I would rather not get into here), the intact male who bred her was supposed to be fixed soon and she went into an early heat.

Rat Dog's puppies are now 4 days old. She has 8 of the 9 left - one had something significantly wrong with it, and she euthanized it (at least that's the theory we're going with).

Last night, someone who shall remain nameless left a laundry basket full of dirty clothes in the same room. This dog LOVES laundry baskets. But the only ones we own have HUGE holes in the sides, twice the size of the puppies, so I've been very particular about not leaving any near her.

Of course, this morning she'd pulled half the clothes out and moved all the puppies into the laundry basket. I found one wiggling out one of the holes, picked her up and quickly moved them back to the small wading pool we'd been using. Then I removed the basket. She began lifting them up by their hind legs, and not so gently moving them from one side to the other.

I assumed she wanted them all in one spot, since they'd wiggled away from each other, so I pushed them all together in front of her. She curled up, began whimpering, and pushed them away as soon as they tried to nurse. She's outside with me right now.

She's such a small dog and has so many puppies. I have to physically remove her from the room to potty or even eat. When she gets food, she wolfs it down then whines at the door to go back in. I'm keeping her outside until she eliminates, because I'm sick of cleaning up that room. So I think she's losing her mind, if that's even possible.

What's going on? What should I do?

 

[tailwagging]

it could be she is just so new to it that she doesn't know what to do yet or it could be that she has retained a pup or afterbirth and knows that her milk is going toxic.

 

[Cottie]

I've palpated her pretty hard and felt nothing retained. She's been doing great up until this point. I'm really worried she's outmatched. Should I attempt to supplement two at a time? To give her only 6 to feed at once?

 

[Dood]

Do the puppies look fed? They should have round bellies just like rabbits.

If not then check her teats for mastitis - reddish, noticeable veins protruding and tenderness. If they look OK then try express some milk and see if it looks normal - not greenish, watery or stinky

If that seems fine then take the dogs temperature (human ear thermometer or or rectal) and if she has a fever (over 102.5 F) she may have an internal infection (rotting retained kit, infected uterus, etc... ) and will need to see the vet.

If there is no fever then it is likely just first time mom jitters. It sounds like she is the kind of dam who wants to hide her pups so I would move them to a very low traffic area where they won't be disturbed, don't let the kids play with them until she settles down a bit and keep any other animals far away from her and her litter. She will be releasing stress hormones into her milk and this can lead to very high strung puppies who are nervous and can turn into fear biters later in life.<br /><br />__________ Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:24 pm __________<br /><br />Only split the litter if it is obvious some are not getting fed. She should have 8 functioning teats but count to be certain.

Puppies don't 'claim' a teat like some other animals so you could switch a small pup to a better teat and put a pudgy pup on a less engorged one.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

She's such a small dog and has so many puppies.

That's a lot of pups for a little dog, but she should be able to handle it. If they don't seem to be getting fed well enough, you can supplement them with puppy milk replacer. I've never had to supplement pups, so don't know if the PMR causes loose stools like KMR does, but if so you can mix it with goat's milk.

She curled up, began whimpering, and pushed them away as soon as they tried to nurse.

Are her teats hot or inflamed? What is her temperature? Has she been nursing the pups well before this?

Her milk should be white and may be slightly sticky. It should be free of any clumps or clots.

Of course, this morning she'd pulled half the clothes out and moved all the puppies into the laundry basket. I found one wiggling out one of the holes, picked her up and quickly moved them back to the small wading pool we'd been using. Then I removed the basket. She began lifting them up by their hind legs, and not so gently moving them from one side to the other.

She may feel that she and the pups are too exposed. We keep our litters in wading pools also. When the last litter got older and started climbing out of the pool, I picked up an empty watermelon box from Costco- you could get her one of those from any grocery store. I'm pretty sure the small wading pool would fit inside it, but if not the box itself will keep them contained. You would have to put plastic down on the floor to prevent any pee from leaking onto your floor, but at this age she should do a pretty good job of cleaning up after them.

The box has a separate piece for the bottom, but the carton itself has "wings" folded toward the center with a hole in the middle. If you invert the box into the bottom panel, it will make it feel more "cavelike" and she may feel more secure.

I have to physically remove her from the room to potty or even eat. When she gets food, she wolfs it down then whines at the door to go back in.

For the first week she will not want to be away from the pups for any longer than it takes for her to go potty. I would just take her out every hour or two for a potty break. If she doesn't go right away, take her back inside so she doesn't get too stressed.

 

[Dood]

If you havent already, you should be giving the mother a higher protein and higher fat diet to help her with milk production and of course fresh water should always be available.

 

[Cottie]

Do the puppies look fed? They should have round bellies just like rabbits.

They are well fed.

If that seems fine then take the dogs temperature (human ear thermometer or or rectal) and if she has a fever (over 102.5 F) she may have an internal infection (rotting retained kit, infected uterus, etc... ) and will need to see the vet.

Only have an ear thermometer, and it's not working - registering her temp at 96. I'll get a rectal when I go into town.

If there is no fever then it is likely just first time mom jitters. It sounds like she is the kind of dam who wants to hide her kits so I would move them to a very low traffic area where they won't be disturbed, don't let the kids play with them until she settles down a bit and keep any other animals far away from her and her litter. She will be releasing stress hormones into her milk and this can lead to very high strung puppies who are nervous and can turn into fear biters later in life.

She's very high strung to begin with. Always jittery and handshy. I think she has some kind of brain damage. She had gone back to his parents' house, because they have a much less stressful household, but they're out of town frequently and we didn't want to be shuffling her and the puppies back and forth.

We set up the whelping area in a wading pool in the laundry room. It's the only room with a door that the other dogs can't open and the kids never go into. I check on her and handle a few of them that have things to watch quite frequently, so I don't know if that's adding to her distress.

She's OK with my oldest daughter coming in and petting (not picking up) the puppies. Hot Dog had sneaked in through the door while I was doing a check, and she almost took his nose off. Didn't even give a warning growl. So the younger kids are banned from that room lest she removes a finger - not that they'd go near the washer/dryer anyway. :lol:

 

[Honorine]

That is a lot of puppies, I myself would take a good look at the litter and figure out which are the largest ones- these are the ones you supplement- you allow the smaller puppies to nurse off the mother. I'd feed perhaps 4 of them. I use Goats milk Esbilac, always have a few cans hanging out, but any good prepared formula will do, never was one to make one myself. It does sound like she's overwhelmed and doesn't know what to do, some dogs are natural mothers, some aren't. Your going to have to watch her and teach her what not to do, like not picking them up by their legs. First litters are always stressful. I've had problems with less than careful mothers, I would crate that girl next to the puppies, only let her in to nurse and clean, and watched them the entire time. If I had any doubts at all I never left the mother alone with the puppies until they were larger.

 

[Dood]

Could you build a dark tent like structure over the pool to make it even darker?

If she is already a twitch dog then it is likely the cause. She just wants to be left alone and do her thing. Give her as much peace as possible.

 

[Cottie]

Are her teats hot or inflamed? What is her temperature? Has she been nursing the pups well before this?

Her milk should be white and may be slightly sticky. It should be free of any clumps or clots.

I took her outside to eat and potty (she didn't potty). She returned in a much better mood, no more flinging of the pups or pushing them away.

She may feel that she and the pups are too exposed. We keep our litters in wading pools also. When the last litter got older and started climbing out of the pool, I picked up an empty watermelon box from Costco- you could get her one of those from any grocery store. I'm pretty sure the small wading pool would fit inside it, but if not the box itself will keep them contained. You would have to put plastic down on the floor to prevent any pee from leaking onto your floor, but at this age she should do a pretty good job of cleaning up after them.

I have a small office/file crate. It has holes the pups could it through if they tried, though.

I had put her in a small rubbermaid container when they were first born, but was told it was far too small and she'd crush the pups.

For the first week she will not want to be away from the pups for any longer than it takes for her to go potty. I would just take her out every hour or two for a potty break. If she doesn't go right away, take her back inside so she doesn't get too stressed.

Yeah...I need to scrub down the floor in there today. Unless there's food involved, she won't do anything but whine and scratch at the door. Fortunately it's a tile floor, so cleanup in there is fairly easy.

If you havent already, you should be giving the mother a higher protein and higher fat diet to help her with milk production and of course fresh water should always be available.

Not sure what to feed her. She's getting 4Life from TSC. I was going to give her rice and beef, but she turned her nose up at the beef and will only eat kibble. Any suggestions?

Could you build a dark tent like structure over the pool to make it even darker?

If she is already a twitch dog then it is likely the cause. She just wants to be left alone and do her thing. Give her as much peace as possible.

Not really. The only other thing I can think to do is invert one of the wooden shipping crates we have and cut a hole in that, but then I wouldn't be able to get to her or the pups readily. I'll mull this one over and hope for an epiphany.

That is a lot of puppies, I myself would take a good look at the litter and figure out which are the largest ones- these are the ones you supplement- you allow the smaller puppies to nurse off the mother. I'd feed perhaps 4 of them. I use Goats milk Esbilac, always have a few cans hanging out, but any good prepared formula will do, never was one to make one myself. It does sound like she's overwhelmed and doesn't know what to do, some dogs are natural mothers, some aren't. Your going to have to watch her and teach her what not to do, like not picking them up by their legs. First litters are always stressful. I've had problems with less than careful mothers, I would crate that girl next to the puppies, only let her in to nurse and clean, and watched them the entire time. If I had any doubts at all I never left the mother alone with the puppies until they were larger.

That won't cause any problems? If I go that route, do I bring her to the pups or the pups to her?

I'm afraid crating would make her more neurotic. She lost her ever loving mind the other day when I was switching out the bedding. Fiancee held her while I did a quick switch - 2 minutes tops and she never lost sight of the pups. She did nothing but cry and flail.

 

[Dood]

Dood wrote:
If you havent already, you should be giving the mother a higher protein and higher fat diet to help her with milk production and of course fresh water should always be available.

Not sure what to feed her. She's getting 4Life from TSC. I was going to give her rice and beef, but she turned her nose up at the beef and will only eat kibble. Any suggestions?

keep her bowl of regular kibble full and offer a second bowl with a small serving (1 tablespoon) of puppy chow or cat kibble and slowly add more (up to 10% of daily ration) to avoid tummy upset. You can also add a teaspoon if vegetable oil to her kibble

 

[JessicaR]

I always give my pregnant dogs puppy food for the last 4 weeks of pregnancy until they wean. A nursing dog will eat 3 times the amount of food they normally do to keep up with nursing, and since she has such a large litter she may need more.

My girls never minded us humans messing with the pups, but let another dog or cat come around... I don't know what kind of crate you have, but you can use that for her and the pups, if it is big enough. you can use card board to line the crate if it is a wire crate, or if it is a plastic one block part of the door with cardboard so she can get in and out but the pups stay in the crate. also if you use a wire crate you can cover it with a blanket for more privacy.

 

[Cottie]

I put the Rubbermaid bin back into the pool. She hopped right in and was very accepting of me moving the puppies to her. She's been significantly calmer since.

Another problem....she ripped the cord clear off one of the pups. She had an open wound which scabbed up nicely. There is no swelling, redness or heat at the site, no discharge and no foul odor. It looks very similar to an infant's navel heals, with an off-white coating. Am I correct in assuming its the same metric as you'd use for an infant?

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Puppy food is important for nursing moms, it has a lot more protein and fat. Putting her on puppy food should help.

 

[Marinea]

I second (third) the puppy food idsea, along with a bit of vegetable oil on top. When my dog had 10 pups four months ago, I was worried, but she handled it fine. It just took a bit more protein and fat to keep her looking good.

 

[JDWest]

Goat milk with the puppy food also is a great combo for whelping moms. Easy to digest and the extra protein and calcium helps alot. Goat milk is great for puppies too to mix in when they switch to solids. Really gives them all a healthy look.

 

[Honorine]

I always bring the mother to the pups. Often I'll pull out the ones I'm going to supplement and put those in a box, let her in to feed the smaller ones while I sit there and feed the puppies. Will work with some girls, not all. Then after the littler ones have full stomachs and I'm done feeding I put them back in with mom to be cleaned up. Once all the milk is gone and their clean I pull the girl out.

Besides puppy food you may want to consider a dog vitamin, and calcium. Because she has so many pups she may become dangerously low on calcium heading towards the third week, and dogs can die from hypocalcemia. I feed my girls Raw Max(vitamin) Red Cell for dogs, and a calcium citrate tablet dissolved in water every day while lactating. If she's going to be milking heavily its something to think about.

 

[Pepperoni]

Sometimes the cord can be pulled off very close but as long as it didn't cause an umbilical hernia there's nothing to worry about. Even if it does have a hernia, most are not severe and are easily repaired, usually when the pup is neutered. We had a dog who didn't get his repaired until he was about 18 months.

 

[Cottie]

Sometimes the cord can be pulled off very close but as long as it didn't cause an umbilical hernia there's nothing to worry about. Even if it does have a hernia, most are not severe and are easily repaired, usually when the pup is neutered. We had a dog who didn't get his repaired until he was about 18 months.

Nope, not a hernia. Just a fairly decent open wound. It's going through the various stages of nasty umbilical healing. Glad to know it's the same as people, more or less.

I always bring the mother to the pups. Often I'll pull out the ones I'm going to supplement and put those in a box, let her in to feed the smaller ones while I sit there and feed the puppies. Will work with some girls, not all. Then after the littler ones have full stomachs and I'm done feeding I put them back in with mom to be cleaned up. Once all the milk is gone and their clean I pull the girl out.

I'm really worried if she was separated from them for longer than 15 to 20 minutes she'd forget she has them. She's that kind of dog.

So far so good. She's becoming more wiling to go outside to potty, leaving the nest (willingly) to eat and they're all quite fat/happy. I've picked out the four I'll supplement - there are 5 I always find curled up in the corner sleeping while the others are still greedily nursing. The pup with the wound is one of them, but I'll leave him in there just so he gets more of the good stuff to heal.<br /><br />__________ Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:44 pm __________<br /><br />It's Day 6 and she's doing better. She got VERY skinny, no matter how much or what we fed her. Sometime yesterday she had an epiphany that they were going to suck her dry, and has been willingly leaving them to potty and eat. We've switched her to 4Life puppy food - I compared all the labels, and they were the best brand I could get at TSC.

The one with the open wound no longer has an open wound. Just a small hole in the skin, so I'm no longer worried.

So, have some puppy pictures!

This one NEVER SHUTS UP. Good grief. I took her out to bottle feed and all she did was whine, even while she was feeding! She does it while she nurses, too.

Here's hole in the tummy pup. Looking a lot better!

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

I love the 4health brand foods. FYI I recommend it to my clients, lol.

The pups look really great!!! Even the one with the sore tummy. Momma getting skinny isn't unusual, some dogs shrink right down when nursing. It can be exacerbated by stress, too (such as having a whole litter of whiney babies!!!), but as long as she has good food, she should be okay.