possible VC broken buck, I need colour help!*pictures added*

[dangerbunny]

Help colour experts!

I recently bought a nice Holland Lop buck, he is a broken tort and likely a Charlie but since I wanted him primarly for breeding I didn't mind. Recently I was working on posing him and noticed his eyes looked different from all my other rabbits. I contacted the breeder and they had never noticed anything with their rabbits eyes. Some breeders on a Holland page mentioned he could be a Vienna marked broken.

I was wondering how I could tell and how that would impact my breeding plans with him?

His dad is a broken tort and mom is a sable point. Grandparents are tort, broken sable point, rew, and broken sable.

I can add pictures of the little guy after I do chores.

Any help is much appreciated!

 

[Dood]

First off you can only get a Charlie if both parents are broken patterned and since the dam was a sable point he cannot be a charlie, however one broken gene combined with one Vienna gene often creates "false Charlie's" and if his eyes are a bit odd then this is likely what the buck is.

The problem with the Vienna gene is it can create disqualifying white spots that inevitably show up on the best kit in the litter so many show breeders do not want the gene sneaking into their bloodlines.

On the other hand, the general public often prefer bunnies with a snip of white on their nose or forehead and those with a white foot or two and of course the blue eyes are also popular

 

[dangerbunny]

Pictures!
He is 5 months old and in an awkward stage. He is a nice guy with good bloodlines.
Not enthused about sitting still.

close up of the eye

Thanks for the reply Dood, I guess it is time for me to stop being intimidated by genetics. So if he is carrying the vienna gene I could use him in a BEW program but not advisable to put him with my regular does? I was really hoping to get some Sable point out of him.

 

[Peach]

The problem you get crossing shaded or chocolate into a BEW bloodline, you can get several DQs. Like purple yes & a red hue to the eye. On top of it, you will get mismatched or marbled eyes (like he does), white toe nails, random white spots,etc. You must make all buyers aware of this when you sell offspring if you intend to sell for show. You can clean up certain DQs with a REW, it will essentially pull out the shaded issue, but then you get more chances of REWs. (I personally love REWs, but some people think they are scary lol)

Out of curiosity, if there is BEW on neither side of the pedigree, are you sure that the pedigree is as true as it was written? I'd just be curious if it is a buck that comes from good bloodlines, it might be worth double checking. Not that genes can't hide for a while, but it might make me question it

 

[dangerbunny]

Peach- I think the breeders were honest, they have a good reputation and have any colour projects as far as I know. I'm thinking if he carries vienna it's was hiding in one of his many broken ancestors.

Pretend you are talking to someone a little slow, rabbit genetics really confuses me. Tort is shaded right? so possibly if he was bred to a blue eyed white he might carry funky DQs into the line. If he's bred with non bew, VM or VC does he might carry something weird too? How would REW clean it up? I don't mind REWs, although some people are weird about them.

 

[Dood]

Technically tort is not shaded

This buck might carry shaded from his sable point mother (but could carry himilayan or REW instead) and since REW is recessive to shaded (and himi) you can eliminate the colour from your blue eyed white (BEW) bloodline and avoid getting wonky eye colours in your BEW kits.

 

[Prisma]

He definitely looks like a VM. Have some MR that there is no bew on their pedigree, but I know they have it far in their background because they are from rabbits I had before in my original BEW program (not my breeding, another breeders that I integrated). One of the siblings to the 2 relations I have that show no vc/vm qualities is a vm. So its not impossible some thing similar happened. I will note any offspring good enough for me to keep that I decide to sell as a possible VC if they don't appear otherwise though, may hide for 20 generations before it is seen again. This is where good record keeping comes in and hoping that the next person will continue such.

 

[dangerbunny]

<so confused.

 

[Dood]

I was really hoping to get some Sable point out of him.

just be prepared for unshowable Vienna marked kits and warn show buyers that the kits could secretly carry the Vienna gene .

 

[dangerbunny]

okay so as long as I am okay with getting some non showable kits and telling people he is a VC I can bred him with my regular does, just expect some white spots and what not popping up. I do have a good pet market so not super worried about that.

If I was interested in a BEW program would I look for a BEW doe, correct?

where does the REW come in?

Sorry I am so slow, I swear I'm bright. Rabbit genetics just baffles me.

 

[Random Rabbit]

. Rabbit genetics just baffles me.

I fear that the Vienna gene is going to scramble rabbit genetics for Years and Years to come !!!

 

[Dood]

Find out if the buck carries shaded (or chocolate ) before you worry about the shaded (or chocolate ) gene altering a BEW eye colour.

BUT

Pet buyers don't mind a slightly off blue eye and you can still show since it is a fault and not a disqualification, however, expect them to loose to a better specimen with sky blue eyes.

 

[dangerbunny]

Thanks for the feedback. Looks like I have some test breeding to do in the future! Thinking about having a side colour project now.

__________ Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:05 am __________

So I started a little BEW side project, I got Mr. Special Snowflake a Blue eyed girlfriend and will have a separate blue eyed line, don't want anyone to get the same unexpected surprise I did. <br /><br /> __________ Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:35 pm __________ <br /><br /> So I bred Mr. Special Snowflake with my black VM doe and they had a litter of broken, two broken torts and two broken black. I also had an experienced blue eyed white breeder say unless he has bew in the pedigree he is unlikely to be VM. So now I'm confused. He turned out to be a nice buck, he has longer than ideal bone but it's thick and I like a lot of his parts, super friendly guy too.

 

[Dood]

Breeding a VM to a VM only has a 25% chance of creating a BEW and one litter of 4 is not a convincing sample size to say for certain he doesn't have Vienna but it is just as likely that he has wonky eyes and isn't a VM :shrug:

Statistically you should have gotten 50% broken and 50% solid but if you think he is a charlie then the pedigree is wrong and his mother wasn't a solid sable point.

 

[dangerbunny]

Yeah, I wasn't thinking BEW kits but I was surprised to see all broken. Silly bunny.

 

[Prisma]

The blue in his eyes definitely means he is a VM. The vienna gene can go unseen for generations because people forget or leave off suspect VC on those "normal" looking rabbits, especially if they are a VC that produces kits that look normal...they should always be called possible VC so people have some idea it might pop up. Those broken kits you need to be very careful about when/if you sell...as they are all suspect vienna marks. Part of them are vienna marks in disguise of brokens most likely, if not all of them. There will be no way to know unless their eyes change color to be an absolute VM this early since they aren't breeding age of course(can be up to 6 months of age before this completely happens although I've had them finish or notice it at about 6 weeks the earliest).