Possible color?

[offherrocker]

I know these Rex kits are only 3 days old, and not great pics....but when I shined the flashlight in there, the dark solids looked almost iridesant green?? Also noted that the insides of the ears were pale, on the black lion heads, the inner ear was dark. Mom is castor and dad is tri broken.
Thoughts?

 

[Alaska Satin]

I know these Rex kits are only 3 days old, and not great pics....but when I shined the flashlight in there, the dark solids looked almost iridesant green?? Also noted that the insides of the ears were pale, on the black lion heads, the inner ear was dark. Mom is castor and dad is tri broken.
Thoughts?

I don't see any green and have no idea why you would, but the dark ones with light inner ears looks like castors (aka chestnut agouti). Hard to make out the brokens but they could be tricolor, broken castor, or maybe one of each...?

 

[offherrocker]

I think it was the way the light was hitting them lol.

Will the broken ones stay that way? I ask because I thought I had 2 broken in my lion head litter, but they all ended up solids.

 

[Alaska Satin]

I think it was the way the light was hitting them lol.

Will the broken ones stay that way? I ask because I thought I had 2 broken in my lion head litter, but they all ended up solids.

Yes, the brokens should stay that way; I've never heard of a broken becoming solid (though of course there's a first time for everything). Perhaps your lionheads were double-maned, and so looked broken as young kits? Do you have before and after photos?

 

[offherrocker]

I thought they looked broken....guess I was wrong? Ended up with 2 grey's and 4 blacks...culled 2 kits at 2 weeks that were solid colored.

 

[offherrocker]

The 5 solid definitely appear to be castor. Here is the 2 broken.

 

[Alaska Satin]

The 5 solid definitely appear to be castor. Here is the 2 broken.

Those both look like broken castors.

As far as the lionhead litter, that is interesting about the two that looked broken, which admittedly they kind of did. However, their lighter areas were not discrete, but just kind of blended into the blue areas. Also, from what I can see the markings were on areas of the rabbit that have shorter fur (forehead, nape of the neck). Possibly an effect of the different fur types on a lionhead? I've never raised the breed so have no experience with that.

 

[offherrocker]

Noticed several of the kits were out of the box this evening....and I had noticed before that one isn't QUITE castor...so here is the one plus the 2 broken. What is this color?? Looks almost wild colored??

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

Noticed several of the kits were out of the box this evening....and I had noticed before that one isn't QUITE castor...so here is the one plus the 2 broken. What is this color?? Looks almost wild colored??

First looks like a mix of Chestnut and Gold Tipped Steel, second (and third?)looks like a Tricolor

 

[offherrocker]

So not showable colors...especially since the both brokens have white faces. Oh well. These are mostly for fun anyway lol.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Noticed several of the kits were out of the box this evening....and I had noticed before that one isn't QUITE castor...so here is the one plus the 2 broken. What is this color?? Looks almost wild colored??

The solid still looks like a castor to me; there can be a lot of variation in that color. And yet, looking at the face photo, I suspect that it is a harlequinized castor. You're right to note that that distribution of dark and light, especially on the head, is not a normal castor pattern; and while I don't see any banding or patches on the body in this one photo, the effects of a single harlequin allele could explain the unusual color distribution.

The brokens, too look like they're harlequinized. I wouldn't call them tricolors, exactly, but rather broken harlequinized castors. A harlequinized color has the normal color allele <E> but a partially-recessive Harlequin allele <ej> following it and affecting the normal color, i.e. it is <E ej>. A harlequin or tricolor (aka broken harlequin) has the <ej> in the dominant position, as in <ejej> <ej e> or <ej_>

And yes, you're right, if they're harlequinized, they would be disqualified at an ARBA show.

So not showable colors...especially since the both brokens have white faces. Oh well. These are mostly for fun anyway lol.

As long as a broken rex has even a spot of color somewhere near the nose, around the eyes and on both ears, it is showable (assuming it's not booted or a charlie). I can't see the noses on your brokens but their eyes and ears would pass. But again, if they're harlequinized, it's a moot point for these two.

First looks like a mix of Chestnut and Gold Tipped Steel

As far as I understand it, there isn't really such a thing as a mix of chestnut and Gold Tipped Steel (GTS). A GTS is a chestnut, with the addition of the more dominant steel gene. The Steel eliminates most or all of the the agouti markings (light belly, ear linings,etc) and squishes the agouti rings all up to the top of the hair shaft.

Chestnut: <A_B_C_D_E_>
GTS: <A_B_C_D_Es_>

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

As far as I understand it, there isn't really such a thing as a mix of chestnut and Gold Tipped Steel (GTS). A GTS is a chestnut, with the addition of the more dominant steel gene. The Steel eliminates most or all of the the agouti markings (light belly, ear linings,etc) and squishes the agouti rings all up to the top of the hair shaft.

Chestnut: <A_B_C_D_E_>
GTS: <A_B_C_D_Es_>

I know, guess I should've been more specific
Parts of it look like Gold Tipped Steel and other parts look like a Chestnut

 

[Robochelle]

As someone who just got harlequin in my line, I wasn't aware you could see it as a partial recessive. Looking at the above photos, I don't see stripes and the face doesn't look like it's split colors left-and right... this is what I've assumed are the patterns of harlequin, so what am I looking for in these cuties, to spot the hidden harlequin?

 

[judymac]

What is this color?

I think the broken kit tells the tale:

Orange and black are in separate patches, this broken has harlequin genetics. 'Harlequinized' is the term used to describe what happens when a recessive harlequin gene messes with the dominant color gene. You often end up with castors (aka chestnut agouti depending on breed) with mottling around the ears and in small patches on the body. They just look 'off', until you look closer and realize there are little patches of off-color where they don't belong due to the behind-the-scenes action of harlequin.

You see this in other genes as well, like the Vienna blue-eyed-white gene that can cause white mismarks, one or more blue eyes, and/or Dutch patterning with just one recessive gene. Just one recessive chinchilla gene can result in off-color gray-blue eyes instead of the proper brown.

Harlequin seems to be quite insidious in causing off-colors.

 

[Alaska Satin]

As someone who just got harlequin in my line, I wasn't aware you could see it as a partial recessive. Looking at the above photos, I don't see stripes and the face doesn't look like it's split colors left-and right... this is what I've assumed are the patterns of harlequin, so what am I looking for in these cuties, to spot the hidden harlequin?

Harlequins aren't always properly-marked but there always seems to be an unusual separation of colors:

 

[offherrocker]

Here's my 8 month old Rex buck. Definitely harlequin lol. Out of my castor doe and tri broken buck...full sibling to my little guys.

 

[offherrocker]

Is it possible to eventually breed the harlequin gene out using my existing castor doe? I mean by breeding one of her castor offspring back to her? Or will it always be there if I used her kits?

Just seems like the tri/harequin gene is complicated, lol. I realize I already have a nicely marked tri broken buck, but he is way smaller than he should be. I am actually wondering if he isn't a mini Rex...

 

[Alaska Satin]

Is it possible to eventually breed the harlequin gene out using my existing castor doe? I mean by breeding one of her castor offspring back to her? Or will it always be there if I used her kits?

Just seems like the tri/harequin gene is complicated, lol. I realize I already have a nicely marked tri broken buck, but he is way smaller than he should be. I am actually wondering if he isn't a mini Rex...

The E series has five known alleles, in order of dominance: <Ed> (dominant black, which is apparently quite rare in the US), <Es> steel, <E> full color, <ej> harlequin and <e> non-extension (makes red/orange, tort, ermine, and sallander for example).

You know your doe has an <E> in the first spot of the E series since she is full-color castor, although you might look closely to see that she isn't subtly harlequinized herself, in which case you'd know she's <E ej>.

You know your tri buck is either <ej ej> or <ej e>.

If you got both harlequin <ej_> and harlequinized castors <E ej> out of your doe, you know she carries either a copy of <ej> or a copy of more-recessive non-extension <e>.

So... breeding out the harlequin first depends on whether she even has it! The ideal approach would be to breed her to a non-extension color: first choice would be red since those are an accepted color in rex. If you got harlies, you'd know she carries <ej>; if instead you got reds or torts, you'd know she carries <e>. And, any kits from either of those possible litters which were not harlequinized would be the ones to keep, since you'd know they did not carry it, and you'd have achieved your goal of getting rid of the harlequin in one step.

You could do this with the other non-extension colors too, but you'd be throwing multiple wrenches into your program since none of those are recognized in Rex (and although it's a recognized color, adding chinchilla in the form of ermine and/or sallander can make for some more complications too).

If you find she does carry <ej>, or can't test breed her to find out, you can breed it out by just eliminating any harlequinized kits from your breeding program going forward. It might crop up occasionally, but eventually you'll be rid of it.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Here's my 8 month old Rex buck. Definitely harlequin lol. Out of my castor doe and tri broken buck...full sibling to my little guys.

I hate to say it, but that does not look like a rex coat, at least in this photo: too many obvious guard hairs. Can you post photos of the parents?

 

[offherrocker]

I was told he was the offspring of these two...was I given false information?