Possible amber mini rex?

[Rosalaun]

Just wanting a bit of help with his colour! I don't know his breeding totally, I didn't get a close look but I believe his full sister was a booted castor, and I know the breeder also has a lot of broken chocolates, so my guess was towards amber... however when bred to a self black doe (blue dam and orange sire), he's thrown two black otters. I was guessing I'd get castors, so that otter is pretty well hidden if I've got his colour right. Had him cover another doe (also self black, full sister to the first doe), so waiting to see what she'll have to try and work him out totally.

In the mean time opinions would be appreciated

 

[TeaTimeBunnies]

I'm sorry about being no help what so ever, but I just had to say it. HE'S SO HANDSOME!!!! OMG I LOVE HIS COLORS!!! :bunnyhop:

 

[Nymphadora]

Take a close-up photo of the ear tips... if the lacing is chocolate, you've got an amber, if it's black... maybe a castor with a wider rufus band?

 

[Rosalaun]

Haha thank you TeaTime! He's definitely my favourite buck just for his personality <3

Thanks for that Nymphadora - I've put up a couple photos below. I actually think these in the dark with flash are much more accurate in terms of showing his actual colour than the daylight photos above, but I'm still unsure quite what colour I'd call it - a pale (tiny bit) of black, or a grey-ish chocolate? Popped up the one with the back of his neck as that possibly gives a better idea of the difference between rufus band and tip colour.

But ultimately given that he is most likely castor-based but has thrown 2 otters, is he going to be AAt? Trying to get a bit of a colour profile for my lines to make things a little easier.

 

[alforddm]

Going from the second batch of photos I think amber.

 

[Rosalaun]

Brill thanks Alforddm, will definitely be a much more useful buck if he actually does have that chocolate in there as well, I haven't got either colour in my group yet. I'm hoping he'll actually throw something agouti-based in the next litter as well if we're agreed that he is castor based, got a bit confused seeing him throwing those otters.

Really interesting how difficult this colour is to capture well in a photograph!

 

[Nymphadora]

I agree, it looks amber to me, too. Mind you, I haven't seen a ton of ambers in person...

If he's AAt, then he will continue to throw otters here and there, depending what the does are carrying. Since he is agouti-based (not castor-based) you should get some agoutis eventually, but it's not surprising that you're getting otters if you're breeding to a self (aa) doe. The self colors are recessive to otter, which is recessive to agouti (so he doesn't look otter, he only carries it in his genes). There should be a 50% chance of the kits being otter, and 50% chance agouti, since the dad’s A-locus genes will win out over the self color genes, and that’s all he’s got to give. But in individual litters those odds don’t always match… over time you might get a 50/50 split, but one individual litter may be all otters or all agoutis.

His chocolate color, on the other hand, is recessive. So where the kits are showing dad’s A-locus influence, they’re getting their B-locus looks mostly from their mom, I would think. Black is dominant (B) to chocolate (b), so you’ll get some black otters and castors from that pairing, but you won’t get any more chocolates unless the doe carries for chocolate (Bb). Try breeding him to a chocolate doe and you’ll probably get more ambers.

If anyone wants to correct my explanations, by all means, I don't exactly hold a degree in rabbit color genetics, and I'm known to make mistakes here and there.

 

[Rosalaun]

Thank you so much for the help again - I know my genetics well enough with horses (ignoring the many new mutations that keep popping up in those white pattern genes!) but still getting my head around rabbits. It doesn't seem like Amber is a super common colour here in the UK - never actually seen any breeders selling rabbits they've classified as ambers, I don't believe they can be shown though so that's probably why. That makes sense though, throwing otters from a self doe means that the otter is from him and not the doe.

So ultimately if I get a chocolate doe and breed him to her, I could have a mix of ambers and choc tans? I'm slowly wanting to work my way towards lilacs, perhaps keeping a castor for the sake of something different, so if we've established that he isn't homozygous agouti (meaning kits would also be heterozygous between otter and self), and most likely is showing chocolate, that helps a huge amount towards that. Typical that I choose the odd-coloured rabbits to use! lol

 

[Nymphadora]

Thank you so much for the help again - I know my genetics well enough with horses (ignoring the many new mutations that keep popping up in those white pattern genes!) but still getting my head around rabbits.

Here's a site I frequently use to try to wrap my head around how the color genetics work for rabbits: https://www.raising-rabbits.com/rabbit-coat-color-genetics.html

It doesn't seem like Amber is a super common colour here in the UK - never actually seen any breeders selling rabbits they've classified as ambers, I don't believe they can be shown though so that's probably why.

Ah, see in the US amber is a showable color, so maybe that's why we have more available?

So ultimately if I get a chocolate doe and breed him to her, I could have a mix of ambers and choc tans?

Yup! From what I understand, those are likely outcomes.

 

[Rosalaun]

Ohh I'll go have a proper read, looks helpful. And quite possibly yes if it is showable for you! Bonus of asking on a forum with plenty of Americans xD Thanks again for all your help.

 

[alforddm]

And possibly a few others but it depends on what other recessives are in the woodwork.

 

[SableSteel]

Ah, see in the US amber is a showable color, so maybe that's why we have more available?

In mini rex it's not showable. Only in rex. In the US there's not as many points on color in mini rex (compared to UK mini rex) and from what I've seen, more color crossing. Maybe that's why amber is more common? Still not super common in mini rex, as compared to rex.

For what it's worth, I vote Amber too Though it seems you've already gotten your answers

 

[Rosalaun]

Glad to hear that the colour is a general consensus then, really put me off with him having those otter kits - I was fully expecting to get castors. Interesting, over here it's 40 points for fur, 40 for colour and only 20 points on conformation. I think a quick google is telling me it's 10 points for colour by the ARBA? But that would explain why there's much more focus over here for breeders to only have maybe 2-3 colour lines at the most. I went to collect a chinchilla rex last week and the breeder had a good 10 (out of 30) that were chinchilla or broken. Thankfully I'm only vaguely considering showing so will enjoy having a range of colours in the mean time.

Actually just going through the BRC standard online here, amber is showable but is called cinnamon instead, that's what threw me! It doesn't seem like there's a difference in showable colours between minis and standards either. The only colour that I don't actually get on the standard though is Nutria, described as 'Rich golden brown, colour to go well down the fur, pearl-grey undercolour to reach the skin, rusty tinge a fault' described as a self colour. I can't seem to find any photos to match the colour description though.

 

[Nymphadora]

Ah, see in the US amber is a showable color, so maybe that's why we have more available?

In mini rex it's not showable. Only in rex.

Whoops! Haha, thanks for catching that, SableSteel!
I may have assumed since our full-size Rex do show in amber that the minis would, too... good to know they don't!