Popples (I keep adding pics...then, I started ranting)

[skysthelimit]

sky, didn't you have a pair of modified chinchilla rabbits someone sold as SF? They looked all black but the blue eyes were the give away?

Self chin is a totally different ball game. That happens in many breeds. Never, never put a chin gene where you don't really want it later on. But these weren't modified chins, they were Silver Fox with a chin gene, like Silver Fox with a wool gene. They weren't sold to me as Silver Fox. They popped up in a Silver Fox litter after cross breeding and testing for the gene that caused the white foot, and I was given them with the rest of the herd to continue the experiment, which brought me to the conclusion of self chin, the only other way to get blue eyes in a self rabbit, other than Vienna or some freak genetic mutation.

Also consider that Silver Fox was a combination of breeds from the start, the chin and steel genes are part of the original makeup, seriously, and you'd never know because they are always bred to self. Like REW. I don't feel the same way about Torts however. And then people keep telling me about the SF shortage. So shake a fox, get a surprise. The only way not to is to go back to the heritage lines, or get from someone who has already purified their herd. Since people are in the "I'm only breeding for meat why does it matter" mode, you are going to have to look for them.

Things happen with blacks, they get scattered white spots, they get brown patches. I had one with a white undercoat. Silver Fox blacks get strange ticking. Just junk in the trunk. I wish I could see them in person. They look normal to me, they don't look steel or super steel.

These broken kits-- they look like kits with scattered white hairs. That's all. I get them in the Rex, when they molt out the second coat, either the coat get better or I cull. I culled a group of Otters because the doe produced the scattered white hairs in the black otter kits. No mysterious steel gene, just scattered white hairs. Lots of them. This was especially true in the Hollands, their coats looked like that. Like people blame Vienna for every white spot or blue eye, which was not my case, steel seems to get blamed for every ticking issue.

Cross all with the Opal you have. Cull. Keep an Agouti to cross against. Yo have an advantage. Lots of SF breeders have no other breeds, or agoutis to test against. I have no whites to test for white. That will have to be a project just to breed and see if it pops up.

 

[Zass]

Sky, I'm not calling the white hairs steel, I'm calling the gold ticked hairs steel.
In that particular kits case, I don't think you will ever see it if you hadn't handled that kit yourself, the off colored hairs are subtle enough someone could pass it off as light reflection in pictures.
That fluffy broken steel kit was from a FA doe and a silver tipped steel meat buck BTW. The other two are from a different litter that was born at the same time.

I can show you the mother and father of that litter that produced the other two, one is a very obvious and unarguable steel pictured above. (the one in the back) (actually, I can show pics of the other parents too, I have lots, haha, being camera happy has it's benefits)

Doe:

Buck:

They also produced the gold tipped blue steels and a whole lotta dark rabbits with just a faint bit of steel ticking. That black doe is genetically gold tipped agouti steel(carrying dilute and REW). It's not mysterious at all. Your right though, it is different than self chin. I can honestly say that I've never worked with self chins, and that I don't understand that gene fully.

As far as those kits from the SF cross litter, they might look black now and show ticking later, OR they might never show it unless test bred with a visual agouti rabbit. It's a shame I don't have room to save and test breed each and every kit.
I don't plan on messing with it, since I see two steel already visible. The one on the bottom and the runt show it in the last pic of popples I posted, but if you can't see now, I'll post em in a couple days, when more color has come in. Like you said already, their ears aren't white, which means steel, not agouti.

I have some well developed steel kits from MY buck and an opal doe too I can add pics of. (yes, I love my opals)

Like I said to Dood. I don't take any arguments personally, and I value the difference in opinion...or something like, thanks for arguing with me, I'd rather know if people thought I was wrong.

Most SF breeders would probably prefer the hidden steel to the torts. It's just that non-extension is another easy to get rid of recessive, with no sneaky "false blacks" popping up.

__________ Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:01 pm __________

This one is from another opal and my SF buck. (the new litter is from a friends buck)
It's a steel. See? No eye rings, no white ears, greyish belly fur.

The SF might not be super steels, but both bucks are definitely carrying at least one copy of the gene. It makes me wonder about the comment you made about SF blacks getting strange ticking too.

It's bothers me because a steel CAN look like a self, and produce kits that look like selfs when crossed to selfs. Sometimes an odd steel will pop up in a litter, sometimes it lies hidden for generations. That's why people find it so darned mysterious, and it's why I don't want it in my SF.

 

[Dood]

Yup, definite steels. Since your SF carry REW, among others, I bet they got the gene from an out cross to a NZ.

Nearly every REW I've bred has been steel, and quite a few of the meat stock Californians too.

 

[Zass]

Yup, definite steels. Since your SF carry REW, among others, I bet they got the gene from an out cross to a NZ.

Nearly every REW I've bred has been steel, and quite a few of the meat stock Californians too.

Exactly. That's what I thought and wasn't worried. Until I tried my friends buck, from a totally different state. He doesn't carry rew, or dilute like mine. I wish, I wish she had a pedigree for him!!!!

Now I'm leery of SF in general.

And I honestly would pay $100-$150 for SF that were proven steel-free by being tested on a visual agouti. Not a self, because breeding a hidden steel(like the black doe pictured above) to a true self can easily produce more hidden steels, and no visual steels.

__________ Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:40 pm __________

Alright. (I'm calmer now, and I hope I didn't offend anyone. To further explain the situation, that "self black" NZ mutt doe was also bred to my SF buck (NOT the father of this current litter I'm picturing) and produced clear visual gold ticked steels in that litter as well.

Black+black= agouti? nope. So it's obvious a rabbit can look all black and still genetically be a steel. I believe it's that black doe who's actually the agouti rabbit.(I'm giving the SF buck the benefit of the doubt here, but the truth is, I still don't know, breeding to a true self might never show me anything useful, it's why 1000 websites tell you to never breed steel into self lines. I also believe a totally black steel like that is more likely to produce kits that look like her, and less visual steels. It means I will never know if her kits are selfs or steels unless I test breed them.

Of course, she's not the mother of THESE kits. (yes, yes, I've used SF bucks to make a lot of meat litters. That's how I've stumbled on all this. It's because my family eats mainly rabbit and hunted game, and the SF bucks do produce good meat kits.) These kits mother was a visual opal doe pictured further back in the thread...or maybe in a different one. Either way, she's in my gallery.

Here they are updated:

This is unarguably a steel. It looked like a black rabbit in some of the earlier pics though. Steel kits have a way of looking more like agoutis than blacks at birth, then looking more like blacks, then getting their steel whenever they feel like it. Some get it heavy and fast, some never get it at all.

And last, the currently unmarked kits. I could be wrong, they might be blacks. Chances are some of these ARE black rabbits. Although they all looked identical at birth. Chances are equal that some will get a light ticking later, and some could be steels and never ever show it in their coats.

The very fact that I can't tell without test breeding is exactly why I want SF who are simply clean of all steel genes to begin with. Then, I'll never ever have to worry about producing agoui rabbits that look like blacks.

 

[skysthelimit]

I'm saying just don't be leary of all SF. It's in the gene pool, because it's in the gene pool of the original rabbits crossed to make SF. And it's not going to go away, unless every SF breeder gets agoutis to try to make it go away. And may not then. The tort ee gene can ride as Ee for many generations as well. I just consider it the "junk" that comes with creating new breeds, or preserving old ones, which is why I get on the soapbox every time someone wants to create a Rex from other breeds because they can't find any.

Steel is steel, but in the absence of the Steel gene, you are gonna get mismarked kits. It's one of those things. I still get prominent guard hairs in the Rex gene pool, from who knows where. I just don't want anyone to feel that all SF are tainted with steel (and it might be), or for people to blame steel for every stray mark, or vienna for every white spot. The true is that all rabbits have some taint in the gene pool, if the breed was a created breed.